2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 674 times)

cinnamon girl

    Thanks for posting the pics Slammin - it's always nice to see the people in action behind the screen names. You're such a strong runner - it must feel good!


    DW: congrats on another race. +1 to shorts - I think that would be cool.


    Finbad (thanks JMAC!) and Mikkey - looking forward to your return!


    Congrats to  Lela - I can't imagine trying to train at a high level (or even consistently) for a marathon with a little one while working full-time.


    Taper Czar

      Nimmals - How do you like running mile races in the VF? Also DW - remind me whether you ran on Sunday in the VF as well. Always looking for input on them for races shorter than a half.

      5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 


      Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 


        Congrats DW and Nimmals on your 5th ave mile races! Impressive!

        JT - Very nice 3 x 2 and another 20+ LR.

        Cal - Consistency is key! Great week.

        Cinnamon - Awesome week - Fartlek, tempo and some vert on the LR! Plans are pretty much set for Berlin/Europe trip. Doing Berlin 9/26 - 9/30, Munich/Oktoberfest 9/30 - 10/3, Prague 10/3 - 10/5, and then frolic on the trails in Switzerland until 10/11. REALLY EXCITED.

        Finbad - Saw you ran into a sign on strava? Hope everything is ok!


        My week - Had a nice workout Wednesday, though I think I pushed it too hard given the conditions. I've been reading a lot lately in the value of not hammering speed sessions (or any run/workout). The idea of finishing strong and not keeling over in exhaustion after the last rep compared to the Frank Shorter approach where he just killed it, having nothing left after each session (which is probably the extreme). I need to put this to practice more. If the goal is 10k effort, keep it 10k effort.

        On Sunday I ran a local half marathon just outside DC. Second time running the course. Combined with idealish conditions for early September (62t/56dp), thought I would make a go at sub 82. Came through 5mi @ 31:12 but really knew a bit before that I didn't have the legs for it. Eased up after 8 and just cruised home. Had fun out there and don't regret trying to be a little aggressive. The one takeaway was I just want to get to more start lines.


        Weekly Summary
        Monday, Sep 02, 2019 thru Sunday, Sep 08, 2019

        <tfoot> </tfoot>
        Day Miles Pace Description Link
        Tue 8.0 7:35 rAcE wEeK strava
        Wed 10.4 7:43 Workout Wednesday- 6 x 3min @ 10k effort / 1min easy strava
        Thu 8.0 8:25 I’d walk down Cornelia street again strava
        Sat 5.0 8:02 Race Shake! strava
        Sun 1.1 8:19 Morning Run strava
        Sun 13.1 6:34 Parks Half Marathon strava
          45.6 7:33

        Mother of Cats



          Darkwave Nice race I saw the finish of your race my GF recorded your heat, she knows I have a crush on Jen Rhines so she mostly focused on Jen then panned back to you, LOL


          So....then you saw that I let up at the line.  (a friend sent me a finish video, which I've added to my race report).  I am mildly annoyed at that.  It didn't cost me a placing, but it might have cost me a faster time.


          We're putting that one down as a lesson learned, along with the previous "everyone is a master" lesson.


          Shoes: I wore the VF Next% for Fifth Avenue - really liked it.  Interesting to note that at the USATF Masters Road Mile, a LOT of people were wearing either the Next% or the earlier VF, including the female winner (wore the Next%)  I couldn't figure out why someone would wear the earlier VF - that doesn't seem like a good choice at all for a road mile with multiple turns, let alone a road mile at all.


          Then...move forward to the Fifth Avenue, and I saw a lot of NB 5280s at the front.  I was the only one wearing the Next%, and there was one person wearing the VF 4% (she's recovering from a plantar plate injury, so perhaps that dictated her shoe choice rather than speed).  Rhines, for obvious reasons, wore Adidas (looked like the Adios).  Seemed like most of my immediate competitors wore the NB 5280, as did the 2nd place woman.


          I picked up a pair of the 5280 myself, since I love road miles and was thinking I might even wear it for 5Ks.  And...after walking around in my house, I'm not sure I want to run in them at all.  They have this weird feel like the arch support is on the wrong side of your foot - towards the outside rather than the inside.  Even walking around, it feels like they force my ankle to collapse inward.


          A few quick shoutouts:


          Cinnamon - good to have you back.  I agree with others that 70s are pretty darn hot still.  That tempo is quite impressive.


          JT Reeves - agree with Cinnamon, sub-12 for 2 mile repeats ain't slow at all.


          Nimmals - you didn't just win, you owned it.  Flipping fantastic.


          Weatherboy - thanks for checking in!  Ditto to Finbad.


          As for the shorts...I just think that shorts style is a personal thing.  T-shirts are pretty universal, after adjusting for size/gender, but shorts come in a wider range of styles, lengths, etc - boy shorts? split shorts?  2.5 inch?  4 inch?  6 inch?  And people with differing builds prefer different styles.


          These shorts aren't really my style - they're brightly patterned and seem half-way between a boxer short and a split short (I usually go for boy shorts in black, with maybe a bit of color on the side).  And they're sized generously - I got the XS and it fits comfortably OVER tights.  And while I'm not big, there are plenty of women runners smaller than me.


          A t-shirt that is too big is a more useful garment than a pair of shorts that are too big.

          Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.


          And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.


          Stotan Disciple

            Darkwave great race again and loved the race report. It was Christy who said 1-1. Didn’t know you knew her she and Falmouth  Chris and Chris are two peas in a pod. 😂 they were both coached by same person. I told her he snuck that first one.

            as for the shorts what an ugly mess I will be giving mine away or leaving them in the car as emergency shorts. The NB 5280 though I tried them and I’m curious but the fact I run 4 road miles a year makes 200 too steep plus NB supported racist Trump I’m sticking with Kapernick and Nike whose stock and sales has grown since the kapernick ad. Back to the shoes, I tried them in the NB run center for bib pick up. When you toe off it feels like someone is pushing your shoulders. I did some strides they felt good but when I did my quick step they didn’t feel smooth and the arch felt weird too I felt all kinds of protest from my feet as I tested them out. Foot was throbbing I was wearing the Pegasus shield and when I put back on the shields my feet immediately calmed down. If I can get them for $50 on clearance I’ll get a pair for racing the shorter events indoor like 400,800,1000.


            JMAC, the Vaporfly Next have been simply amazing. I was a little disappointed on my first wear at Boilermaker but ever since they have been super amazing. I think I’m going to run a low 32 in these for a 10k. As for the mile they fly, I tried doing quicksteps in the 5280 and they didn’t feel as fast. Whereas when I did my quickstep at 5th Avenue I gapped Falmouth by 10 meters in about 6 steps. It was crazy he was there boom quicksteps I’m alone and pulling away. The next% quicksteps way better than any shoe I’ve ever worn.

            Thinking should be done first, before training begins.


              Congrats DW and Nimmals on your races.  Some really nice times!!


              JT: Awesome 3 X 2 reps!


              Cinnamon and JayL  Nice looking weeks!


              As I mentioned before I also picked up the Next % about a month ago but have yet to run in them (other than a few steps across the room).  Really looking forward to testing them out later this fall!


              JMac: When does your 12 week cycle start?  Thinking is coming up soon!  Are you doing a version of Daniels or something like your Boston cycle?


              My next marathon will be Jan 5 in Jacksonville.  Leaning towards a 16 week plan that will focus on 4 weeks of controlled interval work, short tempos (4-6 mile cruise intervals and/or nothing more than 20 min tempo's) in this block with mostly EZ LR's stretching out from 16 to no more than 18 miles.  This will be enough with the heat we have here.  Then starting at about the 12 week mark switch over to a marathon specific phase with just the mixed EZ and tempo runs (JMac has done a bunch of these with some mixture of EZ+ tempo + EZ + tempo + c/d) or tempo repeats (e.g. 3-4 X 2 miles) as the first quality workout and some standard LR's extending out past 20 miles every other week.  Towards late October and November mix in 1 or 2 long duration marathon pace LR's and finally race a HM at about 4-5 weeks out from race day.  This plan was borrowed from a local coach who is a regional-elite Masters level runner who is coaching other folks with a similar plan.  It is certainly a Daniels inspired plan, but nowhere near the craziness of the full 18 Daniels Q2 plan that I followed before Boston.  Hoping this is enough with the mileage that I sustain as well Smile

              5K: 16:15 (3/20)  |  10K: 33:40 (4/20)  |  HM: 1:15:53 (12/19)  |  FM: 2:40:30 (1/20)

              cinnamon girl

                JTReeves: meant to say thanks. And I'm glad you're doing Hartford instead - I wasn't ready for you to run Erie Smile


                Jayluf: awesome!! That sounds like a great plan!! Frolicking is one of the best things and in Switzerland nonetheless!! Sounds like a short time for Prague though. It is hard to do and see everything! EXCITING! And I like your takeaway from your half.


                Weather: can I have a copy?   just kidding. What are the length of the tempos in the marathon specific phase?


                These shoes are like drugs - people are getting addicted and paying whatever it costs, and will never be able to function without. And what it's giving you is an alternate reality. 


                  Cinnamon: without copying the plan here is a quick summary:


                  First 4 week "speed" phase:

                  - 4 weeks worth of interval work staring with 800's and getting up to 1200's by week 4

                  - short tempo work starting with 20 min and moving towards 5-6 mile repeats.

                  - Increasing the LR.  I might continue to mix in the tempo's into the LR's most weeks since I like the 2Q idea with more recovery in between


                  Main Marathon Phase for weeks 4-13:

                  - For Q1, looks like he alternates weeks with either longer duration T mile repeats, several 3 or 4 X 2 mile tempo repeats, or even some mixture of EZ + tempo repeats (3 or 4 X 1) plus lots of EZ miles and finishing with another similar tempo block.

                  - For Q2, it is either more of the long duration EZ + tempo + EZ + tempo + EZ, moderate LR's, or several blocks of marathon pace work.


                  Random Thoughts:

                  - He doesn't really include more than about 3 long duration marathon pace runs in the entire cycle!

                  - No crazy 15+ mile mixed marathon pace and tempo repeats that Daniels Q2 includes.  Although I'm sure those LR's with tempo's at the end will feel just as hard

                  - No interval work after about week 4 unless you want to jump into a local race here and there

                  - Looks to be only about 4-5 runs over 20 of more miles total


                  Not saying I will follow this plan to a T, but I feel like after 2-3 cycles of the full 18 week Daniels Q2 blocks I need to back off a bit.  As has been discussed on these boards I have killed just about every single workout in these plans, but have under performed just a bit come race day for several reasons (weather has been the biggest reason).  I feel like 1) my cycles have been a bit too long in recent history and 2) I've obviously left a bit of my race effort in my workouts.  So I feel a scaled back Daniels approach might be a good thing to try this fall.  Plan will be to continue to keep my volume in the 80-90 mile range most weeks with several days having EZ runs of 10 or more miles on top of these.  Also plan to race at least one HM somewhere at least 4-5 weeks out from race day Wink

                  5K: 16:15 (3/20)  |  10K: 33:40 (4/20)  |  HM: 1:15:53 (12/19)  |  FM: 2:40:30 (1/20)


                  Taper Czar

                    Weather Funny you asked, I was just about to lay out my plan for this cycle on this thread!


                    CIM 2019 Training Plan




                    I've followed Jack Daniels 2Q more or less for my last 2 marathons (2:46 and 2:44). My last marathon cycle (Boston) was an injury-riddled disaster. My 12 week average mileage with 12 weeks to go to Boston was only 36 MPW. As part of that cycle after the injuries, I made a concerted effort to cut back on the quality days and just make sure I got the mileage up. I ran way less Q days than NYC and was able to get to an average of 57 MPW over the 12 week cycle. I got to the line healthy, which was the most important thing, and somehow eeked out a PR on a warm sunny day.


                    CIM Training


                    My two takeaways after Boston were 1) Get the mileage up over the summer to get a good base and 2) focus on 5K training, as I had lost all semblance of speed with my lack of Q days. I feel that I accomplished both of these, nabbing a nice 5K PR and getting my 6 monthly average mileage north of 50MPW.


                    This cycle, I plan on following a modified Jack Daniels 71-85 2Q cycle. Here are my key guiding principles for this cycle:


                    1) Keep easy days easy! I noticed this summer that I have never been injured during the summer, but I get injured every winter. Why is that? It's not weekly mileage (this summer was consisntely near my peak) and it's not quality (I was running demanding 5K workouts). I realized that it's because my easy days are 45-60 seconds slower due to the heat. So I'm going to stick with that.

                    2) Weekly mileage is king. I am willing to back off Q days if needed just like I did last cycle, as I was able to grab a PR with so little quality.


                    Based upon my current plan, I think I can get my 12 week average up to 75 MPW, which would be such a huge improvement over my past 2 marathons. I've come in with a great base and I feel confident that getting up to a peak of 83 MPW will not be too much too soon. I will also get my 6 month average to 60 MPW.


                    My goal is 2:39:59. If I can ever get to a 12 week average of 70 MPW, I feel confident in my ability to get myself in sub 2:40 shape. I'll have two check ins during the cycle: a 10K on October 5 and a half marathon on October 27. For the half, since it's still 6 weeks out from race day, I'm not sure I need to go sub 1:15, but if I do, it'll be a great confidence boost that I'm on the road to 2:39.


                    Quality Days


                    For those who care (mainly Weather), here are my scheduled Q days before the taper.


                    6E + 5x1000 + 6x400 + 2E

                    3E + 3T + 8E + 2T + 2E


                    8E + 3x2T + 2E



                    1E + 8M + 1E + 6M + 1E

                    10K Race


                    2E + 2x2T + 8E + 2T + 2E

                    2E + 12M + 2E


                    8E + 5x1200 + 4x400 + 2E



                    7E + 4x2T + 2E

                    Half Marathon Race


                    8E + 3T + 8E



                    8E + 6x1200 + 2E

                    2E + 14M + 2E


                    1E + 3T + 10E + 3T + 1E


                    5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 


                    Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 

                    Elite Jogger



                      These shoes are like drugs - people are getting addicted and paying whatever it costs, and will never be able to function without. And what it's giving you is an alternate reality. 


                      I’ve been going to daily VF4% Anonymous meetings and haven’t run in them since the 28th of April. 😜

                      5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)


                      Taper Czar

                        Weather - is your coach Smoove? Seems to line up (Florida based masters runner based on Daniels). If so, you're in good hands. You'll also notice that I only have 3 marathon paced runs in my plan. I never fully understood mixed M and T based runs, so I've scrapped them completely out of the 71-85. I try to stick to Daniels idea of "understand the purpose of every run" and I can't understand the purpose of those if you're not an elite runner who is going to be surging/laying back with other elites. I'd rather just focus on getting my M pace longer and focus on my T pace on T days. I also never understood his weird ordering of things, where he starts with 2x4 miles but gradually works to 4x2? Isn't that backwards?


                        Nimmals/DW - very interesting. I still have 2 pairs of the old 4%, don't think I'll be upgrading to the Next, especially since it seems like a lot of the benefits are around stability, which doesn't seem crucial to me in a marathon.


                        cinnamon - good to hear from you!

                        5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 


                        Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 


                          Yup you got it - it is smoove from over on letsrun!  Although I just took what he has posted freely online before and will not be using him or consulting as an official coach by any means.  He has coached several of my local running friends to some pretty fast times, plus he has run some amazing times as a Master's level runner himself so I look to his stuff more as a roadmap myself.  Sounds like a great plan for CIM and think the overall volume will benefit you much more than anything.  Also trying to work more on my EZ day pace here as well.  Still very impressed with what you did at Boston last spring!

                          5K: 16:15 (3/20)  |  10K: 33:40 (4/20)  |  HM: 1:15:53 (12/19)  |  FM: 2:40:30 (1/20)

                          Running Problem


                            jmac What do you think your weekly mileage will be the weeks you have the 10k and half marathon race? I'm really hoping this works out for you. I had a RB trying to pull me sub 8s for a lot of Wednesdays run and I kept telling her "easy runs should be easy" while thinking of you. Mostly because she is aiming for sub 3 so her easy is my "trying" effort. Maybe I'll see you around the Christmas tree or the steps of the capitol building on December 8.

                            2020 Goal: Figure out the problem.


                            Taper Czar

                              Brew - 10K will actually be an increase to 76 MPW. The half week will be my only down week this cycle (55 MPW). I usually like taking 1 down week for 3 up weeks, but with such a condensed cycle plus just having taken 12 straight days off, I think only 1 down week will be needed. I like pairing them with a race because it allows me to mini-taper into the race as well.

                              5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 


                              Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 


                              Stotan Disciple

                                Brew - 10K will actually be an increase to 76 MPW. The half week will be my only down week this cycle (55 MPW). I usually like taking 1 down week for 3 up weeks, but with such a condensed cycle plus just having taken 12 straight days off, I think only 1 down week will be needed. I like pairing them with a race because it allows me to mini-taper into the race as well.



                                The only week that matters is RACE week thats how I do it too train through.


                                JMAC I will likely be doing the full as a truth run or pacing a buddy so you I can run the first 4 miles with you or Just behind you.


                                4 mi warmup

                                16 mi workout

                                2m mi cooldown

                                4.2mi @ whatever doesn't kill me



                                JTReeves, Please put me in for Cow Harbor 10K on 9/21 I feel a 32:59goal pace is necessary.


                                Mikkey Tell, the old lady to do a decor change. I don't want no stuffy British rose patterns bedding. I'm requesting Some French Louis XIV pale blue and slate gray bedding. I'm coming for London.


                                You get two pairs of shoes and a Runners Edge Kit for your Hospitality.


                                Thinking should be done first, before training begins.