Lifting (Read 188 times)

 

You can disagree, it's your internet right to do so. I would ask though that you show me a program structure that you feel is better. I also never said weight training would improve your distance running. I was just offering up a way to look a little better on your next Bahama vacation.

 

You mentioned strength over mass. There is something very well know among the weight lifting community that for some reason has not filtered down to the general athlete; muscle mass and strength go hand in hand. Strength/power training involves a greater demand from the central nervous system (CNS) and an increase in the motor unit recruitment. Hypertrophy is more about the repair of mico trauma to the muscle tissue. But make no mistake, one can not exist without a considerable amount of the other.  Just take my word for it or I could spend a lot of time discussing and giving examples of why this is so.

 

I'm not sure where in my post I said or implied quality technique was not important. As an avid lifter, this is something I have always worked on, as do most athletes.

 

As for "serious squatting will probably hurt your training and possibility invite injury so that’s up to you"  I'm 100% right on this. I originally said probably but that was to soften up those who have a problem with absolutes. Here is a common saying among my Power Lifting comrades, " Power lifting is one of the only sports that has a 100% serious injury rate at the elite level". Those injuries that are being referred to are not repetitive motion injuries such as tendonitis, bursitis or even a Grade 2 muscle strain; they are the ones that require months of rehab and most of the time surgery.

 

I guess I will need to also define what is an Elite squat is. Based off of RPS Federation, you could expect a Raw squat from an Elite lifter, male in the open division to be something like this:

 

Weight class: Single max.

148: 425

165: 500

198: 550

220= 600

Given this is a running forum I'd assumed this was directed at runners but sorry if I've misconstrued that.

But I don't agree re training for strength vs. mass.  Increased mass often correlates to increased strength but I'm sure you've heard the phrase 'big useless muscles' to describe some bodybuilders.  It's entirely possible to train for strength without mass though - as you've described the systems are mainly neurological (strength) vs. physiological (mass).  Most weights programs for advanced runners, as well as athletes in many  field disciplines (e.g. jumping, pole vault) take exactly this approach because athletes want the strength gains but not the mass.

Re squats, I'd assumed we were talking just regular bar squats.  I'd be highly surprised if many people on the forums here were lifting the 'elite squat' weights that you described.

I run 5x week.  Do weights 2x weekly, as follows (I do some core work following each workout), which is basically designed to provide strength to support my running:

1. Lower body

Squats: 3x6 (weighted)

Deadlifts: 3x6 (weighted)

Single leg calf raise: 3x10 (weighted)

Lunges: 2x12 (body weight only)

Single leg squat: 3x6 (body weight only)

The single leg squat strictly speaking is probably surplus but it is a great exercise for runners.  The weighted exercises are at a level that is challenging but manageable (typically lighter on the first set, and I'll reduce the weight if I've got an upcoming race too).

2.Upper body

BB bench press: 4x6 (sometimes vary this to incline)

Wide-grip chins: 4x6-8 (include archer pull-ups or plyo movements to increase difficulty)
Standing military press: 3x6

Tricep push-down (1x drop set)

BB curl (1x drop set)

Depending on time I sometimes add in cable flyers and drop the tricep and bicep exercises.

I've been doing weights for probably 15 years so I wouldn't suggest this is an ideal program for beginners.  For a 2 day split I would keep the muscle groups the same but change the exercises and perhaps swap out the more technically demanding exercises (deadlifts, military press) for a machine-based exercise or something simpler.  For a beginner it may also be worthwhile sticking to a low weight / high rep approach (eg 12-15) to get technique and conditioning before switching to lower reps and heavier weights.

I used to target 10-12 reps at lower weights, but switched to ~6 reps at higher weight after learning about what a lot of top runners/athletes do, and immediately noticed that my recovery was much quicker (particularly for the lower body session) and strength was not adversely impacted.

The squats DOMS for me is a lot less on a lower-rep/higher-weight approach than it used to be when I was doing 10-12 reps.  Then I would generally feel it for a couple of days.  Now, I tend to get it only very marginally the following day and not to the point where it compromises a running workout.

I personally think it helps massively with uphill running where you really feel the glutes and quads start to engage and it's totally worth it for that reason alone.  Given it's a great compound exercise, I think it also helps generally with injury prevention, but I have no way to prove that.

I think the injury that can come from doing both squats and long distance running or even short sprints is a one way street. Grant it, I view this more from a lifters stand point then a runs but It's my own personal belief that the probability of injury during the squat could come from the running and not injury while running caused by the squats. But give me a runners prospective on that please!

I didn't consider the one leg movements that you do but when I thought about it, Power Lifting is a bilateral movement for a single movement whereas running is a bunch of unilateral movements put together to create on motion. Therefor, isolating one side would make sense if you were looking for better stability and strength in your running.

Those Dead Lifts you're doing: hands down the best for that up hill climbing power. Still in all, I would guess I may be able to out dead lift you but I'm not going to be overtaking you on a positive 8% incline.

I like breaking the body into 2 groups and doing each group at least 2 times a week

 

Chest - Shoulders - Tris

*  Bench - Variety is good ...

- Straight Bar - Mix it up ... Warmup light and then do a variety

1)  4 x 10

2)  4 x 5

3)  progressive (10 - 6 - 4 - 2 then do as many as possible at the warm up weight (burn it out)

- Other days do dumbbell bench (not same day)

**  I add leg lifts on the bench between sets for core

*  Overhead dumbbell press - mix up a variety of workout (reps)

*  Inclines (Straight bar or dumbbell)

*  Dips or some tri isolation

 

Lats - Bicep and legs

*  Pullups or Lat Pull downs

*  Cable seated pulley rows or some other rowing

*  Straight bar curls - Single are curls or preacher curls

*  Squats - Leg sled or Squat Machine

 

I tend to add some plyo, back and core between weight sets (on either day) and not really get rest -

*  2 foot lateral jumps (18 inch lateral)

*  Planks

*  Box Jumps

*  1 foot jump rope

*  Lunge jumps to alternate leg

 

 

 

Nice workout you got there. I'm sure you look good. What days do you do those workouts? Reason I'm asking is the toll on the shoulders.

The squats DOMS for me is a lot less on a lower-rep/higher-weight approach than it used to be when I was doing 10-12 reps.  Then I would generally feel it for a couple of days.  Now, I tend to get it only very marginally the following day and not to the point where it compromises a running workout.

 

I personally think it helps massively with uphill running where you really feel the glutes and quads start to engage and it's totally worth it for that reason alone.  Given it's a great compound exercise, I think it also helps generally with injury prevention, but I have no way to prove that.

I was wondering about hill sprints vs squats as training for uphill running so I did a Google search on hill sprints vs squats.  Surprisingly, a lot of hits touted hill sprints as better than squats as a weight lifting exercise in and of itself (never mind the applicability to running).  Makes me thinks hill sprints have got to be better than squats as uphill training.

 

I was wondering about hill sprints vs squats as training for uphill running so I did a Google search on hill sprints vs squats.  Surprisingly, a lot of hits touted hill sprints as better than squats as a weight lifting exercise in and of itself (never mind the applicability to running).  Makes me thinks hill sprints have got to be better than squats as uphill training.

Experiment of 1 here. The first time I truly followed the plan in Hudson's book, I did the hill sprints and because I was running 6 days per week,was not as consistent with strength training. My personal opinion was they did nothing for me. At the 8-10 seconds he calls for, really did nothing to help me with longer hills. I prefer squats, lunges, etc.

ETA, whenever I hear the hill sprints are better than strength training, I always wonder if it means if someone is doing neither, hills sprints are better than not doing anything. If you already do the strength training, is eliminating it a step back?

 

 

I think 8-10 seconds is more geared toward form drills to help develop efficiency in running stride and not strength

 

 

In Hudson's book, they are definitely used for strength/explosiveness.