Forums >Racing>2018 3:20 (and beyond)
On the road in MN
Daniels, at least in the 2nd edition, caps runs at 2:30, noting that increased injury risk outweighs aerobic benefits after that amount of time. I think it's pretty individual. For me, I extended those runs to about 2:45 or 2:50 for marathon training. I would also say that for me, two hours would seem short for a long run, but that may be targeted toward runners who don't spend more than 2:30 on their feet in an actual marathon. And I am not one of those people.
good to have some other data points - seems like most other blogs/coaches point to more of a 3hr max.
I think aerobically maybe 2:30 benefits really start to level off in some aspects of training, so gain vs fatigue/risk starts to come into play. but I would think that main slow titch muscle fatigue at further distance... would then help further muscle recruitment of intermediate and fast twitch. Plus countless other endurance benefits non-related to a specific aerobic enzyme saturation...or whatever it was. lol But yes for a 3-4:00 marathoner... longer runs have to come into play - or more often medium longs.
Yes - i'm in the northern suburbs of Minneapolis - sure makes Grandmas and Twin Cities Marathon pretty easy targets for spring or fall. I am praying i can do them both this year! Not sure my wife can handle me in hard training plans all year though. Granted 5 of my runs at 5am - generally its just my long run that gets in the way of things.
OMR - hope your knee checks out ok !
FB - endurance , miles and miles :-) Short on time, make the miles count :-) Stamina (tempo, lactate clearance workouts, threshold, threshold+ intervals) Granted with your race times... my advice is pointless LOL For myself I love a good threshold interval run when pressed for time, fast enough to really get things going.... but not so fast that a longer warmup or cooldown is needed can spend a bit of time cooked in lactate... and then your done. feel fresh for the the most part the next day.
Brewer - Definitely agree on the Track, I've never stepped on one for a running workout. The benefits are definitely there to use them I'd think - allowing you to probably nail paces easier. Similar to using a watt meter on a bike or a treadmill - very easy to hit a prescribed output. Since most amateur runners can't gauge effort very well or don't really know their limits.... .heart rate lags or is variable... But gauging effort and holding effort on varied terrain out in the real world sure helps prepare you for a hard road race. Especially for things like 800-1km repeats leading up to a 5k race or 10k.
I really never do repeats shorter then probably 800(?)... but I try to throw plenty of 20 to 1min strides into the middle and end of my runs - feel it just really stretches things out and helps with the gallop. Otherwise I'm a 180-190 cadence shuffler - so I feel like airing it out a bit near top speed helps for extension and pushoff. At some point my cadence can only go so high (210-215 or so?) so then all that is left is stride length! hah
Well yesterday I was going to do a good 5-6 with my wife... well ended up doing 8 - sure felt nice to be out in the sun again while running! :-) Made this mornings cold dark 5miler more tolerable maybe. ha Now I just need to decide what type of hard treadmill workout is instore for Tuesday and Thursday this week :-/
5k: 19:29 Oct'17 26.2: 4:03 Oct'15 3:22 Grandmas June'17 Upcoming: Grandmas Marathon June'18
My week: M) 11 w/ 10' tempo (3' rec), 6x1' 3-5K w/ 1' rec, then 10' tempo Tu) 6 W) 6 Th) 11 w/ 2x1.5 @ 5K (although I was sluggish/6:18 pace) w/ 400m jog F) Rest ... first day off this year Sa) 7.25 Su) 9.75 w/ 3x3x400 (5K-3K pace) Total: 51
My week:
M) 11 w/ 10' tempo (3' rec), 6x1' 3-5K w/ 1' rec, then 10' tempo
Tu) 6
W) 6
Th) 11 w/ 2x1.5 @ 5K (although I was sluggish/6:18 pace) w/ 400m jog
F) Rest ... first day off this year
Sa) 7.25
Su) 9.75 w/ 3x3x400 (5K-3K pace)
Total: 51
Dad - I see you really are targeting quite a bit 5k or faster in a week? Have a 5k coming up or just part of a speed / vo2max /economy phase or some other logic in mind? First rest day!!! wow
Jogger
fb - still in the burgh
last week came at ~36 miles of running, ~6h of exercise total. highest since FEB 2017. Holy cow.
Mile 5:24 3k 11:01 5k 19:01 10k 38:34 hm 1:26:57 fm 3:02:33
Yes, my next three races are 5K, 3000m (indoor), and mile (road). Also, at my age (54), preservation of whatever 'speed' remains is critical.
OMR ~ Sorry to hear of continuing knee problems. When I tore my meniscus, the tell-tale sign was inability to bear weight. When I stepped out of shower and couldn't stay upright when I had to step over kids' bath toys, I knew it was time for surgery. Good luck.
Dad: If you remember, did it matter (in terms of pain) if you were on your forefoot or heel? Oddly, I have had absolutely no pain if I am on my toes or midfoot, only my heel.
...and, I woke up with no pain whatsoever today when walking. Hmm...maybe this is a tendinopathy/tendinosis thing.
Oregon and DW - I think 19 degrees is superior to 33 and rainy, as well. With 19, I feel like if I can keep my hands warm (with ski gloves) I'm ok. With 33 and rain, there's just no way for me to stay warm.
Brew - lol if I had to schedule my runs around naps I'd maybe get 10 miles a week! Great that you got to get outside!
Ace - glad the hip issue cleared up. Hope it continues.
FB - Rome sounds fun! Re: endurance - I've always found that this helps me more than I anticipate. I actually never focus on speed, and have a habit of doing zero track workouts. What's your goal again?
RnBNick - Sounds like an interesting book, but I tend to agree with OMR that perhaps it's geared towards people that run a marathon in somewhere around 2hr - 2:30. I can't get a 20 mile run in in less than 2 hours, and I that trying to get all of my LRs in at a 2 hour mark would be detrimental for a lot of reasons. But a lot of people know more about this than I do..
M: 6.1@8:51 in almost white-out conditions
T: 6.7 w/speed work on TMs
W: 5.3 @9:38ish (with running buddy/next door neighbor)
Th: off
F: off
Sat: 3.7 @ 10:30ish on TM
Sun: 17.2@ 8:39
Total: 38.8
Another odd week from me, but I seem to be adding miles okay. My LR was a lot slower than usual, and I had thought about putting some mile repeats or a few tempo miles in. but for some reason my legs were more tired from the beginning, so I decided to not push it and just run it at an easy pace, which I think was a good idea given that my legs feel much better than I expected today. It was also cold, windy, and snowy/icy. Think I'm taking the day off today and trying to do 7-8 miles tomorrow in the AM, maybe some tempo miles thrown in.
PRs: HM: 1:32:59 (2015); FM: 3:18:36 (2017)
Nick -- so that's you in the snow pic? Boy am I a fair weather runner. Running in serious cold or snow is fun every once in a while, but all winter? Yikes. You are also the third major Nick in the group. Great name.
33 and raining sucks; doesn't low 40s and rain still suck?
OMR -- if (big if) your knee is something related to tendons/tendonitis/inflammation, my understanding is that the strength/flexibility (majoring on strength) is the ticket, and you'll be back on the road as good as new. Hope it keeps working; hope you aren't going bonkers not running.
Sam -- see lots of self-driving cars? Are they safe?
On the 2:30 LR thing, I thought there was a "time on your feet closer to your race time" theory -- so for lots of people 3 hours, and slow is fine, or even good.
Dad and all -- been thinking about your endurance advice, and you are definitely right. I have six weeks to the race, and could ramp to 60 and then back down. But I'm leaning toward caution, and taking a few chips off the table. I started this cycle wanting to break 4 hours and to feel good running again, so moving the goalposts at this point could be a little greedy and maybe stupid. I was running 20-30 mpw and struggling up until December. So I'm really happy with things, and hoping to get to the starting line feeling healthy. Next cycle; fingers crossed. Hopefully more. Thanks all.
m: 2:55:04 | 10k: 37:14 | 50mile: 9:35
Speed Surplus
That's gotta be a hell of a stretch if it took out two of us. Hope you both mend soon. Oregon - perhaps your watch needs a pep talk? And I'm amused that you consider 19 degrees superior to 33 and rain. For me, they're tied. Did 16 miles, including 2x5 at MP-ish, one mile recovery in between. Splits for the two were: Set 1: 34:14 (6:55/6:56/6:48/6:50/6:45 - 6:51 average)Set 2: 33:55 (6:48/6:50/6:48/6:45/6:44 - 6:47 average) Felt like I could have done more and wasn't going to the well, which is always my goal in MP workouts. Was in a bit of a rush after, so did a bit of recovery swimming but skipped the injury prevention stuff at the gym.
That's gotta be a hell of a stretch if it took out two of us. Hope you both mend soon.
Oregon - perhaps your watch needs a pep talk? And I'm amused that you consider 19 degrees superior to 33 and rain. For me, they're tied.
Did 16 miles, including 2x5 at MP-ish, one mile recovery in between. Splits for the two were:
Set 1: 34:14 (6:55/6:56/6:48/6:50/6:45 - 6:51 average)Set 2: 33:55 (6:48/6:50/6:48/6:45/6:44 - 6:47 average)
Felt like I could have done more and wasn't going to the well, which is always my goal in MP workouts. Was in a bit of a rush after, so did a bit of recovery swimming but skipped the injury prevention stuff at the gym.
Yowza. You looking to break 3?
5:27 / 18:49 / 40:32 / 88:12 / 3:12
OMR - eat more walleye, fish oil helps knees they say :-) When I had a wakeboarding minicus injury I found that biking easy was ok still... one of the reasons I got into biking actually! Had read it was good for it. Plus its a great way to keep your aerobic conditioning and leg strength up.
Sam - 6 hrs! - always nice to be able to hit a time/miles threshold that hasn't been hit in a while!
Katia - winter conditions sure make outdoor stronger runs a bit tough! can't wait to take my harder workouts outside!
FB - yep that's me all frosted up. Amazing how much frost can accumulate on an hour run! You should see the frost buildup on the inside of my coat on days like that - take off my coat and snow/ice goes everywhere!
My 2hr limit of late has been imposed by my wife and/or schedule....or desire for sleep... lol. So in turn I figure I should at least make them a bit on the higher aerobic side of things. Once conditions get better and a little more into training (16 weeks left)... I look forward to getting in some goood long easy runs! :-) Drove an alternate route to work today, along one of my 20-21mi routes... wife said, "didn't we run our 20 here?" //--I was already thinking about it--//.... I smiled, , said I can't wait to get back to it!!! Hopefully with the many 40-56mi weeks and quite a few strong 2hr winter runs - the jump back to 18-20 isn't too hard on legs. :-/
I missed a week. It wasn't that exciting - I hit 39.1 miles with a long run of 13.2 @ 7:55 pace (AHR 148) on the Newport marathon course.
Most recent week:
A bit unorthodox due to the URD on Friday. I tried to go 11 and 14 in consecutive days on the weekend, but I gave up at 11 on the second day. My pace was fine and the effort was OK - had been averaging around 142 HR when my HRM decided to go bananas and shoot to the 180s for no reason - but I was just LOW energy. Borderline about to bonk. So I cut it short.
I'm a bit behind schedule overall, but I still have 14-15 weeks before my goal race (June 10th). I've run most of my PRs off of an average of 35-45 mpw, so I'm just hoping to hit the high end of that (with 50 being a stretch goal) and hope that the 2% downhill of my marathon carries me to glory.
Cobra Commander Keen
DWave - Thanks for the input, and nice week/MP LR. I have a 2x5mi MP scheduled for this weekend, but that's getting put aside for a 15k.
Pesto - I'd certainly be happy with a 10k TT that fast, close to a marathon or not!
Matt - The treadmill does have the ability to program those workouts, but I haven't bothered trying it yet as my treadmill is likely ~10 years old and I'm guessing it's not exactly user-friendly. Manually controlling it let me get pace/distance from Stryd rather than from the treadmill itself, which I think is probably more accurate. It must be nice having some warmer weather to run in.
Ace - Yikes on the hip, but good call in calling off the workout. Clearly you're more mature than your standard 16 y/o XC runner! Good that it didn't really bother you after that.
OMR - Finding your best PR chances seems pretty logical to me, not crazy.
Rune - That Cooper's test would be brutal. I've done something similar with Stryd (warm up 3 minutes all out, 30 min easy, 9 minutes all out) and it's not at all fun.
Nick - No input from me on the book or the 2 hour limit. Skipping outdoor runs to due ice this week, that's certainly something I can relate to.
Brew - Treadmill paces and distances are certainly "interesting". While I think mine is consistent in pace I don't think it's too accurate. Good job getting those runs in around nap times. That's certainly difficult. In general how much is NeRP sleeping at night these days.. err, nights?
PJ - Nice job on the race.
FB - No real advice from me, unless I want to be cheeky like Dad. Daniels is quite optimistic regarding my M pace as well. One of these days...
Dad - Nice mileage and quality last week, with a much-deserved rest day.
So much treadmilling this week... After many days of sleet/freezing rain yesterday was absolutely beautiful, and thankfully that trend should continue for at least a week. Hopefully my dirt roads will dry out quickly. Intervals today, and while I was excited to get out there my legs just felt sluggish and heavy. Oddly enough, looking at the GAP in Strava I was pretty much right on for all my mostly-uphill intervals, and a touch fast on the ones with more downill. Stryd certainly has helped get the feeling for those uphill segments.
15k taking the place of my LR this Saturday. A new course for this race due to some construction, which I'm looking forward to as it should really help with the wind. The race fits pretty nicely into my training schedule, too. It's a cut-back week for mileage, and my second quality workout of the week is supposed to be on Saturday. I should be able to get to the start line a little more rested than I would in a normal week, which should be good for validating/updating my training paces.
Monday, Feb 19, 2018 thru Sunday, Feb 25, 2018
5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22
Upcoming Races:
OKC Memorial 5k - April 27
Bun Run 5k - May 4
Sam: Hi, Globetrotter much?
OMR: Hopefully is nothing bad, and can resolve quickly
Brew: Which watch you have? My Fenix2, used to calibrate well after a couple of runs outside, then, in my wrist, without trying to trick it, it would give me reasonable measurements (with the eventual pace change but within 1% of the TM), but if I did another activity (ski, swim, bike) then the internal accelerometer calibration got wrong.
Now I have a footpod, which I haven't been able to calibrate in a track, so I calibrated it to the TMs. Mind you, it changes based on the shoes I'm using that day... And I also see pace changes even if I'm not moving the TM controls.
Re: Long Runs: I mostly use distance, and try to cap them at 34Km (21 miles), regardless of pace or total time. This cycle, though, I have 4 runs in the 30.6 to 33Km range (19 to 20.5miles), 3 of those took me 2h40, the longest and also hilly, took me 3h15.
Re: Weather: For regular day to day I prefer 0 to -5C than 0 to +5C (that is 9F from freezing). I feel that over freezing, the air carries much more humidity than below freezing. For running, under snow showers is better than in cold rain... Ice pellets are on a different level.
Me: As already mentioned, a failed tempo outside... Then skipping Saturday because of fatigue after a busy Friday. That helped to put a good long run on Sunday
Weekly Summary Monday, Feb 19, 2018 thru Sunday, Feb 25, 2018
OMR ~ It has been a while (the little boy whose toys I was dodging graduates college in a few weeks!), but I don't recall heel/toe making a difference. I do recall bent (pain) versus straight (OK) being an issue.
FB ~ With only six weeks, I actually rescind the "Run More" advice. Not enough time to adapt at a meaningful level Instead I'd suggest two or three special blocks -- either an am/pm combo or a back-to-back LR weekend.
On LRs, I'd just point out that context matters. I get a lot of bang for my buck doing a hilly, two hour (14 miles) "long" run the day after a bunch of tough intervals, which usually results in an 11 mile day. Seems to work for non-marathon training.
Dad: Yeah, that - the fact that I don't have pain unless I'm on my heel - is what has kept me from thinking the meniscus is the issue. And after today, I decided to hold off on going to the Doc for a few more days.
fb: I am hoping that (the stretching/strengthening work + retraining) is the cure!
I decided to give things a try today. After my stretching/strengthening routine, 20 minutes on the bike, making sure my valgus knee doesn't cave in when I push on the pedal. It's surprising to me how that knee just wants to rotate in, but I found a website discussing how this can be re-trained, so that's where I'm starting. That went OK (no pain), so I moved on to the basketball court. 5 x down & back without shoes on, making sure I stay off my heel, and making sure my knee stays in line out over my toes. Then I moved to the track, did 8 x 50 meters with shoes on, again trying to make sure my knee stayed in alignment. It's amazing how much I have to focus on that, but as long as I keep the knee over my foot, it doesn't hurt.
I then did some "lunge walking" - don't know if there is a technical term for this, but basically extended strides with a mini-lunge, pushing my knee out beyond my toes, making sure it tracks over the foot, not inside of it. Here again, it really wants to go in first, then sort of circle out...and if that happens, then I get knee pain.
Long story short: a total of 0.4 miles of running for me today. Longest workout since January 24th!
pie man
Slacker week:
M - 8.5 medium
T - SRD
W - 6.5 medium
F - 3 eaaaasy
S 3 eaaaasy
S - 12 total with 10 @ 6:40 pace
Total 33
With last week being essentially a taper week, I'm going jump back up this week as much as a dare. Then just two weeks to go. Just did a way too early look at the forecast.
11:11 3,000 (recent)