Power Running Physiology Enters the Mainstream (Read 2197 times)


Prince of Fatness

    Ugh. This thread makes my brain bleed.

    Not at it at all. 

    Rich_


      I will preface this with saying I have read most of the books discussed and am currently reading the Lore of Running (interesting to be sure) and I recall discussions of muscle strength gained through specific drills (sort of like all others here have mentioned in their posts - hills, strides, bounding, running lots, etc., but your comment above is ludicrous on its face. You contention is that since the writers only devoted a chapter or a paragraph to your chosen grail, this means they denigrate or marginalize the concept or importance all together. ? Perhaps it is that the concept of developing and using muscles in the act of performance exercise is of such simplistic and accepted knowledge, that they do not feel the need to further a conversation that is best handled by strength and conditioning types and that they would rather discuss the other limitations of performance and how to develop this (ie aerobic and chemical system). I don't know if you have perused the local library aisles, but there are countless books on increasing muscle strength and aptitude for specific performance. Personally, I believe it most efficient to offer strength development programs that fit seamlessly into the training by doing the things you would in the act of the exercise. No need to spend all that time at the gym if I can get targeted conditioning during normal trianing - see hills, strides, bounding, stairs, fartleks, etc. So lets see if I can exptrapolate on what I've heard in your posts. If I want to write a book to help people improve in a sport of mine I can focus on something generally accepted and already covered ad nauseum by other subject matter experts (you need strong trained muscles to be a better athlete at a given sport) ...
      Muscular power, not strength, is the primary component of running (strength and power are not the same thing). There aren't any previous books that I know of that focus on developing muscular power specific to endurance athletes. There are no experts talking at length about power output for endurance athletes. Run Faster is the first book I know of that has addressed power development in any detal for runners.
      Rich World's Fastest Slow Runner
      Rich_


        You are asking for too much there.
        You think it unreasonable to ask someone debating a topic to actually read and understand what is being said on that topic? Interesting, but I agree that is what seems to be occurring here.
        I give these other guys credit for taking the time to pick apart what you are saying.
        They can't pick apart something that haven't read and understood. All they can do is post inaccurate comments.
        Rich World's Fastest Slow Runner
        xor


          Rich, now you are being completely COMPLETELY obnoxious. The things you just wrote apply to YOU as well. You refuse to read what people say to you for understanding and you only answer some of the questions you've been asked. And I don't mean that you are skipping the ones that are clearly bait or poorly worded questions... you are skipping basic ones too. You are here because you like it when people shit on you. You are a very VERY strange person.

           

          Rich_


            Spaniel, I agree with you but why are you so angry. It seems like he is advocating FIRST - run less, run faster.
            As I mentioned earlier in this thread - I don't think my training ideas are radical; they are just a modification of standard training methods. But, for some, the changes are very challenging to their beliefs.
            Rich, why are you posting these articles.
            I think there is value in what the authors of Run Faster are saying. It is in line with the most current physiological information available and is new information to many runners.
            Rich World's Fastest Slow Runner


            Prince of Fatness

              Ugh. This thread makes my brain bleed.

              Not at it at all. 

              xor


                1. How have your training times improved by using your theories and ideas? 2. How many others have used them... and to what degree of success? 3. You wrote previously that there are two groups of runners: fast and slow. And you are the fastest in the slow group. a. What is the line between the two groups? b. How was this scientifically determined? c. How do you know you are the fastest in that group? These are five clear questions that can each be answered in a few sentences.

                 

                Trent


                Good Bad & The Monkey

                  Me, I'm just slow. Well, slower than I want to be.
                    SRLopez, I think he's sincere and you are projecting. Rich's ideas are being rejected because of this...
                    Believe it or not, there are other runners here who are coaches and trainers, who are, to some extent, hyping their own websites or programs or techniques. But ALL of them are also real members of the community - so nobody minds when they decide to post an article. (Of course, the fact that they share their training, and happen to be two and half hour marathoners, probably helps ...)
                    Your entire theory relies on there being little or no importance to the aerobic system. I can post appropriate quotations from you if you like. Finding quotes from a book that, taken in its entirely, completely disagrees with you, that put some importance on training muscles, is not bringing "the tenents of your power running theory into the mainstream." They are presenting muscle training in an entirely different context that what you describe. It's like saying Lydiard agrees with you. Not to mention, they back their combined approach up by actually training runners...
                    And maybe there's no peace in this world, for us or for anyone else, I don't know. But I do know that, as long as we live, we must remain true to ourselves. - Spartacus

                    C-R


                      Muscular power, not strength, is the primary component of running (strength and power are not the same thing).
                      In context of your theory: Strength as defined by Websters is the capacity for exertion or endurance Power as defined by Websters is physical might Seems pretty close to me. In fact, they are even referenced as synonyms. Go figure. I can see where you can get these confused. Most lay people would equate muscular strength and muscular power since both are used in the movement of a physical entity. But I digress as you obvuscate. Since you must mean this in the light of physics, perhaps you really mean Power as in that relating to motor power or electric power where it is a time rate of work performed. If so, you should learn to be more specific. I recall some previous discussion berating of the looseness of your application perhaps it should have been bolded. So your theory, if I can sum it up, is to have powerful muscles (time duration limited) vs. strong muscles and that the aerobic development is over emphasized since it is a power function. You can't even build on this logic. Work is a force applied over a distance. Force and strength can be loosely related here. So by your definition strength is not the primary component of running but by definition you need to have a force prior to a time rate of application. It is a first level order integral vs. a second order integral application. So in your world I need to focus on acceleration but not velocity. Are you assuming equal force for all so we can now simply focus on time application of this force? What does my post have to do with running? - Jack. I'm just using it to prove that opinions/theories are like noses. Some are just larger than others.


                      "He conquers who endures" - Persius
                      "Every workout should have a purpose. Every purpose should link back to achieving a training objective." - Spaniel

                      http://ncstake.blogspot.com/


                      Feeling the growl again

                        Please take the time to read and understand what I write. I didn't say half of running could be related to aerobic fitness. I said for "sake of discussion" - in other words, for discussion purposes only let's assume it to be correct. My personal bias is that muscle is the single most influencial factor of performance, but not the only influencer of performance.
                        Hudson didn't say they were EQUAL either, yet you keep saying he did despite refusing 3 times now to provide a quote supporting your interpretation. Backed against the wall, you shrink back to "suggest". The only accurate thing you have stated in this whole thread is that muscle being the single most important factor is YOUR PERSONAL BIAS. Because you certainly can't support it as anything more than that. Hudson's opening remarks on training are centered on aerobic development and its important -- yet you credit him with bringing your concepts "into the mainstream". If his whole premise (aerobic very important, muscle either very important or important) is true, then yours (muscle very important, aerobic not or not very important) is false. The do not line up. Your argument is compeletely ignorant at best, and purposefully dishonest at worst (and most likely based on past behavior). Mile Collector, You are right...it is all one interrelated system. Poor Dick is just not smart enough to step back and visualize the whole picture. He's the only one here (or ever, to my knowledge) advocating the supreme importance of one over the other. blue skies, Spend enough years on running boards, and watch Dick go through this a few dozen times. It gets old. Quick. That and I admit I have a natural low tolerance for blatantly negligent ignorance and stupidity (ie I could feel empathy for poor Dick if he was just naturally stupid, but he is consciously and purposefully ignorant, illogical, and deceitful to further his agenda). As for Noakes, that is a whole other entertaining story. There was a great thread on letsrun a few months back where I engaged him on his Central Governor theory. First he says you can't override it (a central tenant to its legitimacy), then contradicts himself and talks about how he overroad it all the time in the Comrades Marathon. I pointed out the inherent contradiction, and he back-talked himself and stated you can't contradict it. The poor man became so turned around that he finally said his whole point to the theory was that "the brain was involved". I see why he and Dick get along so well-- they follow the same logic (or lack thereof). They suffer one of the same fatal flaws -- truth and real science play second fiddle to the attempt to create some sort of theory to play the role of legacy for themselves.

                        "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                         

                        I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills

                         

                          1. How have your training times improved by using your theories and ideas? 2. How many others have used them... and to what degree of success? 3. You wrote previously that there are two groups of runners: fast and slow. And you are the fastest in the slow group. a. What is the line between the two groups? b. How was this scientifically determined? c. How do you know you are the fastest in that group? These are five clear questions that can each be answered in a few sentences.
                          Yes Dick, we are waiting and you are ducking like a bad singer at a tomato festival. To recap, let's take a look at what we know about Dick's PRs. 5k: 28:11 (2005) (oh, and 32:04 in 2006 -- good progress there Dick) 10k: 56:58 (2006) 10 -mile: none half-marathon: none marathon: c'mon now.
                          Teresadfp


                          One day at a time

                            Hey Dick, turns out Coolrunning still exists as a forum: http://community.active.com/community/coolrunning?view=discussions Any chance you could return there?
                            POD
                            Rich_


                              As for Noakes, that is a whole other entertaining story. There was a great thread on letsrun a few months back where I engaged him on his Central Governor theory. First he says you can't override it (a central tenant to its legitimacy), then contradicts himself and talks about how he overroad it all the time in the Comrades Marathon. I pointed out the inherent contradiction, and he back-talked himself and stated you can't contradict it. The poor man became so turned around that he finally said his whole point to the theory was that "the brain was involved". I see why he and Dick get along so well-- they follow the same logic (or lack thereof). They suffer one of the same fatal flaws -- truth and real science play second fiddle to the attempt to create some sort of theory to play the role of legacy for themselves.
                              Your description of your exchange with Prof. Noakes isn't any more accurate than your descriptions of our past or present exchanges.
                              Rich World's Fastest Slow Runner
                              Rich_


                                In context of your theory: Strength as defined by Websters is the capacity for exertion or endurance Power as defined by Websters is physical might Seems pretty close to me. In fact, they are even referenced as synonyms. Go figure.
                                You can find my operating definitions / practical usage of the terms strength, power, and endurance in this article. http://powerrunning.com/Exercise%20Physiology/Power%20Running%20part%202.htm
                                Rich World's Fastest Slow Runner