Forums >General Running>Yasso 800s and Boston Qualifier
Runs in the rain
Doing some more analysis on my eventual Boston Qualifying race goal, thinking about the Yasso 800s as a race predictor. For those unfamiliar with this you run 800 meter intervals, gradually increasing the repetitions of this workout each week until you can do 10. The time of the slowest of these intervals in minutes and seconds is the predicted finishing time for the marathon in hours and minutes. I realize there is some controversy as to it's accuracy as a marathon time predictor and it's value as a training tool. There are plans that are more specific to the needs of running a marathon and some consider the Yasso 800s a waste of energy: yasso-800s
Now I'm 71 years old and online it said the average finishing time for runners over 70 is slower than 5:40, I did a 4:29:29 marathon just 5 years ago. However, the BQ qualifying time for ages 70-74 is 4:20, that's a 9:56 minute mile pace. To be safe from the cut off I'd need to be faster than that , let's say a 4:15 time (9:44mm pace). If I use the Yasso 800s as a workout and prediction tool, I'd need to cover the 800 meters in 4:15, a 8:33 pace! At my current state of fitness I am far from being able to achieve that sort of speed. My typical run pace is slower than 12mm.
What I have started doing is to attempt running quarter miles at a 9mm pace, but I don't have the determination to maintain that pace for even the short distance. My time does seem to be improving though with yesterday's run having a segment that STRAVA says I did at a 2:21 and it says a 9:11 pace (if the distance and time is accurate shouldn't that be a 9:24 pace?). I'm just doing two segments of this once a week, but after I am able to run them at the 9mm pace I'll increase the number of segments and eventually make them half mile intervals and continue to try and improve the pace. (Note that a half mile is 804.672 meters, a bit longer than the 800s, but of course the accuracy of my street routes and Garmin times is suspect.) Then I would like to add tempo runs at race pace of increasing distances.
I realize it may be too ambitious to achieve my BQ goal next year, but would like to run another marathon next fall and see how I do. Maybe I'll be ready to BQ by 2024. Sorry for the long analysis, bit I'd be interested in your thoughts.
Long distance runner, what you standin' there for?Get up, get out, get out of the door!
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Why not just run a half marathon to get an idea of your fitness at longer distances?
If that is too long, start with a 10K sometime this winter and see how it stacks up within some online calculators. Although those calculators are aggressive at younger ages (e.g. a college kid who ran a 32 minute 10K can almost never run the equivalent 2:27 marathon, even if he trained specifically for the distance for a few months), in my experience seeing others, I think they do a pretty good job for older runners, and frankly may be the opposite case (e.g. a 55 year old running a 3:15 may struggle to break 21:00 in a 5K).
Often people look to workouts to help them predict races, but for many reasons, they are relatively poor predictors. They're good for giving you an idea of what pace to go out in a race, but especially for the marathon, I would not rely on any sort of workout to predict your marathon time.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
JMac11- My concern is not so much race time predictions, but having the confidence I will be able to achieve my goal. I have heard if you double the half marathon time and add 15 minutes that would give a predicted marathon time. I often run the early Sept. local half and twice I have done the Corning Wineglass Marathon a month later. I am also thinking of doing longer training runs (16 to 20 miles) where I run the last half of run at race pace. Currently my long run is about 9 miles at a slow pace, but I do good in increasing distances, I'm just unfamiliar with bettering my pace.
JMac11- My concern is not so much race time predictions, but having the confidence I will be able to achieve my goal.
yes maybe my post wasn't clear - I am saying the best way to have confidence you can achieve your goal is to run equivalent race times at shorter distances, especially the Half. Workouts are much more useful for experienced marathoners because they know what workouts they ran before certain times in the past, e.g. if I hit my goal pace for 14 miles 4-6 weeks before the race, I know I can probably do it race day barring external circumstances. It doesn't work as well for infrequent marathoners and the only good predictor is a half.
If you can run a half marathon in under 2 hours, I think you have a very good shot at it.
JMac11 - Since I usually just run at whatever pace feels comfortable, let's say 12 minute miles, I often find my race pace is a lot faster. like 10 minute miles or better. So my training runs may not indicate exactly how the race pace will be. Usually I do well when I have built a good distance base. But, It's been since 1999 that I've run a sub-2 hour half with my fastest half being a 1:44:36 way back in 1995. I did run a 2:06:28 half in 2017, but my speed has slowed with age and inconsistent training. However I do think I can run another sub- 2 hour with a lot of work on speed training, so I'll see how it goes!
I agree with everything JMac said.
I do think I can run another sub- 2 hour with a lot of work on speed training
My 2 cents - don't worry about any kind of speed work right now. Over the last 6 months, if your log is accurate, it looks like you've been running about 15-20mpw. Increasing mileage volume would be of much more benefit to you. I'd spend the coming months, or year really, focusing on gradually building up your weekly mileage, I'd think you want to be at least in the 40-50 range. You will build up your endurance and in doing so also build up your speed - two sides of the same coin.
Dave
in my experience seeing others, I think they do a pretty good job for older runners, and frankly may be the opposite case (e.g. a 55 year old running a 3:15 may struggle to break 21:00 in a 5K).
Well except I don't agree with this! They have always been too aggressive for me too - can't achieve the marathon times projected from my shorter distances. I'm 57, can't run a 3:15, but can run a sub-20. I think the correlation is just a very individual thing, maybe not as dependent on age as it is on your speed/endurance balance.
Agree with Dave. Most Boston Qualifiers except the very talented will tell you they felt like averaging 50-60 MPW over an entire cycle was needed to get it done. Again some more, some less, but that is a good consensus I've found.
Dave - interesting and agreed definitely individual. It may still be the case that people have a hard time converting to marathons but I guess my point was you will almost never find someone stronger at the half marathon than the 5K at 18 years old but you will find plenty of people at 55 years old.
DavePNW - I totally agree about increasing weekly millage being the best thing you can do for good marathon performance! But here is what my current situation is: I retired last year, I was working in a group home where many individuals had Covid and being mandated to work multiple shifts and working morning, day and night shifts and it was just too much. My running was like a weekly two miler. So basically I started this year almost at square one as far as my distance and pace were concerned. I began to increase my running, but then a wind storm knocked down like twenty trees around my yard, so major cleanup project during the summer and then there was the fall leaves to clean up.
When I was caught up with the yard work I increased my weekly distance to like 35 miles, but maybe did too much too soon since my knee started hurting. So took a few easy weeks and now I'm working back.Still, I'm projected to have finished 1200 miles this year, not to bad! I will try to build my weekly distance over the winter, but often in the past I didn't really start serious training until May for the September half. I do think 45 mile weeks are good training for a marathon and I like running long distances, but it can take time to build up to doing like 20 mile runs! I've also tried rapidly building up my weekly distance beyond 45 miles, getting above 70 for a week, but found it best to have months of good weekly distance for a base rather than quickly ramping it up.
So why speed work now? My last marathons, 2017 and 2018, I found by the time I had worked up to 20 mile runs it was time to taper and not enough time to work on my speed. I was thinking then "I'm ready for the distance, if only I had another two months to work on my pace." So reading some modern training plans I see speed is included right at the start of training. I think if I take it gradually and allow time to adapt I can get used to the faster paces.I think this will help me to be able to run at various speeds during my training runs, good to mix it up a little! But I know there is the danger of getting burned out from too much emphasis on speed work until late in the training, you want it so you peak at the race.
found it best to have months of good weekly distance for a base rather than quickly ramping it up. So reading some modern training plans I see speed is included right at the start of training.
found it best to have months of good weekly distance for a base rather than quickly ramping it up.
So reading some modern training plans I see speed is included right at the start of training.
Yep. Ideally you want to take the necessary time to slowly ramp up to that 40-50 level (roughly). You don't want to build mileage and add speed at the same time, that increases risk of injury. If you want to mix it up a little, you can work in something lower-stress like strides at the end of runs, or 10x1 min on/1 min off. Once you are comfortable with the mileage level, start a more structured 3-4 month training plan. You will probably only slightly increase mileage - maybe mostly in long run distance. But you will add speed sessions from the start, gradually building that up over the course of the cycle.
DavePNW - From previous experience I know I can increase the weekly millage so I would be on the 40-45 range towards the end of winter or sooner. I get that hard speedwork might be too stressful until the body is prepared by running a lot of weekly miles, however I don't think the two quarter mile segments I run fast each week are super stressful, but will give consideration for holding off doing them. A survey I read of Boston qualifiers had most of them getting up to a 100 mile week! Not sure if I could do that, but I may benefit by doing more than 45. I also could add in more cross training - bike rides and walks.
Consistently Slow
I used race predictors to BQ in 2011 AG 55--59. Not a fan of the Yasso 800s. I was training with MAFF LHR due to years of minor injuries. 80+ marathons and I have only broken 4 hours twice. My 1st marathon and my BQ 17 years later. A speed demon I am not. I used Pfizinger's book as a guide to making a training plan. RA and McMillan race predictors are pretty good. You probably need to race a 5k to get a good idea of your true race fitness. A friend suggested mile repeats on the track. 1-mile WU---- 1-mile run/ 3:00 Rest. Repeat 3 times. 1 mile CD.
BQ time 3:45----Goal time 3:40---BQ 3:37:38. Near perfect weather conditions. Drizzled just enough. Fox Valley Marathon in St Charles, IL. The week after Labor Day. Moderately flat course.
I fall into the group that believes every mile is a good mile no matter the pace. The biggest challenge I see for you is going from 20 miles a week to 50 miles a week. I am guessing you are retired and have the time to train. I am 67 . My marathon goals nowadays are to beat the time clock which I failed to do at 2 of my last 5 races. Hope your training goes well.
Run until the trail runs out.
SCHEDULE 2016--
The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff
http://bkclay.blogspot.com/
Yasso 800's say I should be able to run a sub 3:15 marathon. I can barely run a 1:45 half, on a greta day. Some people are more predisposed to run shorter distances faster, and vice versa. It's a good workout, but may not be a good race predictor for everyone.
There is a bunch of useful information here, including race predictors based on current 5 and 10k efforts:
https://runbundle.com/
60-64 age group - University of Oregon alumni - Irreverent and Annoying
runnerclay - Great that you were able to BQ in 2011! Good running weather and a flat course helps. What is "MAFF LHR" ? I have a shelf full of running books, including marathon training ones like Pfizinger's, Hansons, Daniel's, Galloway's and some others. In the books are race prediction tables with race times predicted based on best times for various distances. When you say you run to "beat the time clock" I assume you mean your goal times. The mile repeats look like a good training tool.
Surly Bill - If you got the speed but lack endurance, then running short distances at the required pace will not guarantee you will meet the goal. Runbundle has a lot of information, it will take time to explore. Thanks for telling me about it!
Several comments have mentioned the difficulty I will have in increasing my weekly millage to 40 miles or over. As long as the increase is gradual I haven't had issues with ramping up my distance. Usually I can add a couple of miles each week! I do find that the more miles I run, the faster I get! Even without doing speedwork you just adapt to running with better form and fitness. Here is a graph of weekly distance leading up to 2018 half and full marathons. I was about at my current level of distance, max 20 mile weeks, but in 11 weeks I did a 70 mile week! Now being 5 years older I'm not sure if I can progress that fast, but I'm sure I could get to 40 mile weeks fairly quickly! Despite getting in some high millage weeks I started late in training and my training base was smaller, so I was not so fast in the race. I think building more gradual for a much longer period would bring better results!
Note the purple bar before the marathon. I did a 17 mile run followed the next day by an 18 miler a week before the race. Usually I like to do one over twenty, but some say it's counterproductive doing training run that last over 3 hours.
Phil Maffatone low heart rate training. There is a RA group. https://www.runningahead.com/groups/LOWHRTR/
https://philmaffetone.com/
"beat the clock" means before the clock is shut down and the race finishes. The race becomes a 26.2-mile training run.