Bad or ok idea? (Read 1357 times)

Ok, if you look at my log, you can see I did a long run on sunday. I am going home tomorrow, and there is a really nice 10 mile trail, super flat, pretty easy run that I would like to do tomorrow. (I dont get home often and really like running on this trail.) I have to do a 4 mile tempo run (7.45-8.00 mm pace) on wednesday for pt. I also want to do a 12-13 mile run this weekend to see sort of what a half-marathon feels like and because I've done a 10 mile long run for the past three weeks. So would it be bad in any way to do this 10 miler tomorrow? Thanks

I take it that would be a bad thing?

Well part of it depends on when your HM is. If you're three or four weeks out to your HM, that's enough time to recover and taper for a few weeks and/or to push out your Sunday run a week. Also looking at your log, a Tempo run of 7:45 to 8:00 seems awful aggressive for you. So since you think it's an easy course and if you take it easy, you should be okay. Larry

Ok, if you look at my log, you can see I did a long run on sunday. I am going home tomorrow, and there is a really nice 10 mile trail, super flat, pretty easy run that I would like to do tomorrow. (I dont get home often and really like running on this trail.) I have to do a 4 mile tempo run (7.45-8.00 mm pace) on wednesday for pt. I also want to do a 12-13 mile run this weekend to see sort of what a half-marathon feels like and because I've done a 10 mile long run for the past three weeks. So would it be bad in any way to do this 10 miler tomorrow? Thanks

Skeetermc: If I were coaching you, I would certainly NOT get you to do so much in the final 3 weeks. There's nothing wrong with you going over your favorite 10-mile trail run when you get home. But it's the rest of the program that I would feel uncomfortable with. I don't know if people still do this; but some people used to do their last long run of 20+ miles something like 2 weeks before the actual marathon. I would hope people got away from such a practice. You just cannot clam in a lot of work right before your actual race/run and expect to do well. The business of running is not like studying for the test; in which you just stay up late and try to memorize as much as you can the night before. So you just ran a 10k race on 9/13; 2 days before that on 9/11, you did a semi-long run of 1:15...and you also did a 2-mile tempo on the same day??? Or did I read it wrongly??? Anyway, so you ran that 10k race and also did almost 2-hour run the next day. If you are running a half marathon in 3 weeks, as far as I'm concerned, your hard training would be finished here. If you want to go for a nice pleasant 10-mile trail at home, great; by all means. But I wouldn't throw another 12~13 mile run over the weekend and VERY fast tempo run on Wednesday. That sounds a bit too much. If anything, and if you absolutely want to go for the trail run, extend it a bit and make THAT a 12-mile JOG--especially if all you want is to "see what a half marathon feels like". Depending on your background of training, at least final 2 weeks, even 3, should be a tapering. Training plan should have a certain "flow". You can't just randomly pick some workout and try to do them to see if you can do them.

THanks for all the advice nobby. [quote]So you just ran a 10k race on 9/13; 2 days before that on 9/11, you did a semi-long run of 1:15...and you also did a 2-mile tempo on the same day??? Or did I read it wrongly???[/quote] Yeah... Well, I did two miles of sprints in the am, and did that longer run in the pm. I was thinking of not doing the longer run, but felt like I should. Anyways, maybe not the smartest thing, and actually I think it did inhibit my race. Oh well. (As if you couldn't tell) I don't really have a training plan. I'm trying to be smart going about this, and I know I need some speedwork, long runs, and some easy runs during the week. That's pretty much all I'm going off. The HM I may run is on 10/18. So I will just extend tomorrows run and not do a long run over the weekend. JUst some short easier runs? Thanks a bunch, I really need to find a good training plan and stick to it instead of doing random runs every week lol.

Skeetermc: I certainly would not twist anybody's arm to follow training the way I would advocate (;o)), but there are several different approach to training. I see race as something of a theatre play (my daughter is into acting...). You practice, practice and practice some more. Then you do dress-rehearsal; and then the big opening night comes, you put them all together and perform at your best. To me, "race" is something like that. In other words, if I'm running at 9-minute pace for my training run; or do a tempo run at 8:20 pace for 3 miles; then I would like to expect to "race", say, 8-minute pace for 10-miler or half marathon or whatever you're training for. In other words, you won't "thrash" yourself in training day after day after day, running at the expected pace, or expected distance. If you're done with that, what's the point of actually racing? Or some people might say, "But look, I ran 13 miles in training (after bonking in the half marathon, dropping out at 10 miles)...!" Well, to me, in that case, you failed to peak on the day, to perform at your very best on the day that's required. Race is the opening night. Having said that, the approach we take is to pick the race that we want to perform at our best; then we count back. How many days before the actual race should we have some sharp stuff so we would be "sharp" on the day? How many days before the actual race should we do the last long run? How many days/weeks do we need to taper--in other words, we maintain our stamina without being overly tired? What's the distance/duraction you feel comfortable before you attempt your race distance (with me, 3-hour run at good effort for the marathon; or 2-hours for half...something like that)? How many long runs do you want to have to feel comfortable mentally as well as physically (without being overly tired) before the race and how much recovery do you think you need in between? All those things should be considered before you put the program together. It usually takes about 3~5 months (or 10~20 weeks) leading up to THE race. In other words (though I'm not saying this is your case because it looks like you've been running fairly consistently), you can't panic and say, "Oh, my God, I'm running a marathon next month (4 weeks from now); I'd better get up and run those three-20-milers now!" I'm sure someone somewhere "recommended" you to have done three 20-milers under the belt. But I'm sure he/she didn't recommend you to do them in the final 4 weeks before the marathon! Believe it or not, some people have attempted that! 3~4 weeks before THE race (particularly for long events like marathon or even half), you should have started your taper. It's too late by then; doing too much trainng would only tire you out. It's probably better even if you just take it easy and store up your energy. Now, once again, I'm not saying you should NOT do any long run from here on. Mental thing is very important. Even the best program in the world (physiologically proven) wouldn't do the trick IF you don't have faith in it. In other words, even if it's a bit odd, it's better to do it if that makes you feel comfortable (of course, there should be some sort of compensation...). Same thing, you said you LOVE to do that 10-mile trail run at home. I think that should be your best workout. So you work it around it. I'm sure you're trying to follow some sort of cookie-cutter program ("I'm supposed to do the long run this weekend; then I'm supposed to do a tempo run..."). So like I said, you'll work around it WITH things that would make you feel good about in mind. So you probably think you'll need to do at least one more long run of, say, 12 miles (close enough to 13!). But you probably shouldn't do too many of them before the half. So let's make that 10-mile trail run a bit longer and cover that. So now you can skip the weekend's 13-miler. If you are supposed to do a tempo run on Wednesday and, say, you decide to do the 10-miler on Tuesday; then don't do it back to back. Move it back to, say, Friday (especially since you won't be doing the weekend long run)... Remember the golden rule: IF IN DOUBT, DO LESS! It's almost always better to do a little less than too much. Most people, especially nowadays it seems, do too much and by the time the race comes, they're too tired! I'm sort of curious to see this young lady I'm coaching here in MN right now. She has run a couple of 3:40 marathons before but seems to be stuck there. So she came to me. She was one of those people; she had been doing 3 X 20-milers for her preparation for the marathon. This time, I cut it waaaay back. She and I did a 3-hour run yesterday. A week before that, we did City of Lakes 25k race. And a week before that, she did 2:20 solo (my Achilles was hurting too much to run with her); and a week before that, another 2:15... That's about it. I hadn't had her do too much faster stuff--she ran a couple of XC relay races and did step running twice. In between, she's been telling me that most workouts are way easy for her. Yet, she actually set her half marathon PR en route of that 25k race. I'm expecting her to PR in the marathon (Twin Cities marathon) by about 10 minutes. We'll see if I'm right... Of course, I could be totally BS-ing! ;o)

Wow, nobby, thanks so much for taking the time to respond and write all this! I think the hardest thing for me is to cut down my running. You said to take it easy and store up energy. Even though the race is all the way on the 18th? I want planning on doing at least a couple more long runs to get used to the distance. It's still a strange concept to cut back on the running to me ha ha.

The common saying is that it's better to make it to the starting line a little undertrained, than to be overtrained or worse not make it to the starting line. FWIW. I've got a trail race on Saturday - "about" 13 mi, but starts with 3000ft climb in 1st 4 mi. Last year I was so concerned about getting some specific training in for the race, that I did an 11.5 mi, 3100ft run about 12 days before the race - which unfortunately took about 10-11 days to recover from. (an assortment of reasons why I did what I did, all of which made sense at the time, including recovery from previous 38-mi race, road traffic, runs before snow flies, etc) While my training run was one of my better runs, my race really suffered, esp. the last 1000ft of that climb (about 25% slope), and I still had bunches of rocky trail to run. Essentially I left my race in the training. That's what Nobby's trying to help you avoid. I've got a stronger base this year and more time before the race so made sure I got my longish and harder runs in at least 2 wks out. That might be too far, and I might be a little flat by race day, but still have a couple more days to get it right - or wrong. I'd agree with Nobby - make your trail run at home a little longer, and that will take you a good part of the way for a half. Not sure if you're at peak colors yet, but trail runs are just gorgeous this time of year. Also, if you're running on trail and your race is on road, the trail run might take you longer than road run, and be closer to duration of your race. But you still need to get some road running in for your feet to adjust to pounding. Good luck!

Oh shoot, I have to go to class, nobby, thanks for your reply, I need to read that in way more detail after class.

Skeetermc: There's a Japanese saying: "One foot on a boat"... This means; you sort of started doing something, now you've got to finish it (or go one side or the other). I took a closer look at your training log. Oh, and first of all, yes, you're right. If your half marathon is on 10/18 (somehow, I thought you said 10/8), that's a good 4.5 weeks. I don't see anythingn wrong with doing another good solid long run. Assuming you had done your trail run of, say, 12-mile or so; it probably took you over 2-hours. You seem to have done plenty of near-2-hour runs before. I'd say, maybe do an hour+ run this weekend (9/21), a semi-long run of, say, 1:30~40ish next weekend (9/28); then do one more 2-hour run (regardless of how far) the week after (10/5)... Now you have 2 weeks to taper. No more than hour the week before 10/11~12)... Something like that. Throw a 5k race or good solid tempo run that weekend (10/11~12), followed by an easy hour's jog. I guess what I'm more concerned with is randomness of your workout. Between the week of 9/1~9/7, you did 2-mile race (9/3) followed by a 4-mile tempo (9/4) followed by moderate 7-miler (9/5); then a day off and 10+ miler on 9/7. Granted, your youth might let your body handle it for now. But it might catch up in a form of injury or fatigue. Another thing is; you ARE doing a great job, running quite a few 1:30~2:00 range quite frequently. But, if you learn to go easy days easy, could you possibly be doing those long runs, say, at 9:00~9:30 pace instead of 10:15? Or is THAT something you might be interested in??? Everybody's goal is different. You need to tailor your program to suit their goals. Some people like to run 10 miles all the time; some people just want to finish the marathon; some people actually want to push the emvelope and see if they can break 4-hours...or 3:40... My suggestion is; how about alternate weekend long run with, say, one week 1:15~1:30 (I go by time; that should be about 7-miles for you right now); and 1:45~2:00 (about 10) the next. So I guess it's mandetory to do this PT/tempo stuff??? So how about, other than that, you do ONE what we call "point workout"? Since you're doing a tempo already, how about make this a hill session? This is actually a strength workout, not to be run fast. You can check this site, if you want to do it that way, for the image of hill training I'm talking about: http://www.lydiardfoundation.org/training/hilltrainingdvd.aspx Do the first exercise; other two can be a bit too demanding at first. Keep other days EASY. Just to give you a perspective; I race at about 6:40 pace now, I just did a 3-hour run at about 8:30 pace (I think I'm about 3:45 marathon shape), and I go at 10~12 pace on my easy days. I'm going kinda nuts right now and running twice a day most days (about 10~12 times a week) and I have 2, maybe 3, point workouts. I'm pathetically slow right now, compared to what I used to be capable of ( ) but within the scheme of things, I cut a minute off my 5k time this season alone (I hadn't raced for almost 15 years). Here's another interesting story which you might fine interesting: http://www.lydiardfoundation.org/Blog/EntryDisplay.aspx?EntryID=68 Don't get me wrong, though; it's not that I don't believe in hard work. On the contrary! I believe in training smart and get the best out of you. In the case of this young girl, Susan; she sent me her workout that she was doing previously. She might do something like 10X800m in 3-minute on the same week she raced. I changed all that and now she runs 3 minutes faster (10k). I kept telling her; it was all in her already, but she just didn't know how to get it out. This winter, however, we are planning on cranking up a notch. Now we know how to get the best out of her and we know where her base performance level is. Now we'll be working on bringing it up one level higher. THAT definitely involves some hard work. AKTrail: Thanks! We seem to always have the same wave-length, don't we?

nobby, THANKS again for the reply. Ok, I'll do some explaining on my log. I was actually thinking about this a lot this week, and realized that since I've been keeping my log, quantity has outweighed the quality of my workouts. So I ended up doing a double that day because I had to get my 30 mpw in. Ended up screwing my 10k race a bit in the process. So I want to have more quality workouts, and what your saying about the point workouts makes a lot of sense. But, if you learn to go easy days easy, could you possibly be doing those long runs, say, at 9:00~9:30 pace instead of 10:15? Or is THAT something you might be interested in??? Everybody's goal is different. You need to tailor your program to suit their goals. Some people like to run 10 miles all the time; some people just want to finish the marathon; some people actually want to push the emvelope and see if they can break 4-hours...or 3:40... My goal is definitely to decrease my time. I am not content with just finishing the hm, (or a marathon in the future), and I don't want to drag across the finish at a 10-11 min/mile. (I Know, thats far ahead in the future). My goal for a 10k is <50, goal="" for="" hm="" is=""></50,><2hrs and="" goal="" for="" marathon,="" well="" i="" haven't="" gotten="" that="" far.="" i="" know="" my="" hm="" time="" on="" the="" 18th="" will="" not="" be="" that="" great.="" but="" maybe="" if="" i="" start="" doing="" more="" quality="" workouts="" it="" will="" get="" closer.="" i="" wish="" i="" could="" run="" 10="" miles="" all="" the="" time=""></2hrs>and get my time down, but long and slow won't do that if that's all I do, right? I wrote down your suggestions for my long runs and will follow that. Yeah, the pt/tempo run is mandatory for ROTC, so I can't get out of that. We are going to do 4 miles at ~8min/mile tomorrow morning, and I really want to get through that. I could stay in the group that does 4X9min/mile, but...we'll see. Another thing is; you ARE doing a great job, running quite a few 1:30~2:00 range quite frequently. But, if you learn to go easy days easy, could you possibly be doing those long runs, say, at 9:00~9:30 pace instead of 10:15? OK, another question, can I still do those longer midweek runs, or what do you mean go easy days easy? Decrease pace or decrease mileage? So if I did a bunch of 4 mile EASY runs, then that would better enable me to do a 7 mile run at a faster pace than my measly 10min/mile? nobby, if it's not to much trouble, would you do a week workout for me? I mean here's my plan for this week: Monday-off Tuesday-easy 6 Wed-tempo 4 Thrsday-easy 5 Friday-hill workout? Sat-long 10-12 sun-off Does that sound like what you were trying to tell me? Thanks a bunch AKtrail, I'm glad you said that, because my plan would have been do a 13 mile run each week up till the HM. lol. Probably wouldn't have worked out all that well. Actually the HM is on a trail like the one I run at home, which is also why I want to do it so badly. HM, you are right, I basically went from running a couple days a week to doing 5 days/week @ maybe 25mpw right before I left for basic. Then I didn't run that much as basic in june/july, then came back and started more consistent 30 mpw. (I had 70 miles of hiking in 5 days in august, which might make my log seem like I ran a bit more than I did ha ha). Congrats at getting 2.04, I only wish I could do that right now!