Forums >Racing>Competitive Jerks Racing and Training - 2023
Jmac some running is very good for you but I think we all have a number where it becomes too much. For me it's probably around 30 mpw but of course to get faster I must run more than that.
I never really got motivated on the strength training until a couple of years ago. I noticed now in my 50s that upper body muscles was diminishing.
It didn't take long for some veins and muscle to start to show once I started some light weight training.
Cal good to have you back. Sounds like some sensible life style changes are happening for you.
Flavio luckily here we don't allow everyone to have guns so it's pretty safe. I still would avoid the city centre at certain dark hours
55+ PBs 5k 18:36 June 3rd TT
" If you don't use it you lose it, but if you use it, it wears out.
Somewhere in between is about right "
Oh hey, I haven’t posted one of these in a while. It still feels like I haven’t been running much, but managed to cobble together a respectable number this week. And no pain in 2 weeks, knock wood. On Thursday I went to the track to knock the rust off a bit, just did some 200m repeats. Not super-fast, but not awful, and more importantly felt OK. Then Saturday went for a “long run” of 12. I was just shooting for double-digits, but was feeling good so decided to tack on a couple more.
If I can keep it up, there’s a half on 6/10 I’d like to run. Not sure how quickly I can get the speed back, but we’ll see.
Today is the Eugene Marathon I was supposed to be running. A bunch of people from my running group are there, and I’m having major FOMO. But so goes it in the marathoning business.
Dave
Cal Welcome back! I'm sure at some point I'll need to do strength work but I've avoided it so far I did listen to a very interesting podcast last week where the MD stated that VO2 max was probably the most important health improvement that someone could make. He said no need to become an elite athlete or be in the top 10% but the mere work to improve VO2 max would provide amazing benefits to the average person. Made quite a bit of sense to me.
My week. Had a bit of a stomach bug and took an extra day but am generally pleased with recovery from Boston. 2 short weeks to go until Sugarloaf so maybe one workout this week then it's off to taper again and start obsessing about weather!!
5K 18:36 (2023), 10K 39:40 (2022), 1/2 1:24:37 (2023), full 2:58:36 (2015)
Mmerkle dude, I'm STILL impressed with you breaking 3 hours with a 20 mile per hour head wind.
Thanks RP. Lately I've been thinking that in hindsight (and ONLY in hindsight) I wouldn't change anything about that day. I'm finally almost finished with your race report. I appreciate that you took the time to describe running Boston in detail. Sounds like you treated the hills the way I treated the headwind. Don't let it get to you, run by feel. Get through it. Again, congrats on the PR. Don't you already get a lot of hills during training though? Sometimes on Strava when I look at your elevation map it looks nuts. Like the marathon you just did lol.
Cal Thanks! It's nice to hear from you again.
My Week: Time: Miles: Kilos: Pace/mi: Pace/kilo:
4/24: Easy run on
treadmill, rowed 5k after 59:20 7 11.2 8:29 5:17
4/25: Off
4/26: 8 X (200m fast, 400m jog)
on the track + w/up and cd. 1:04:47 8 12.9 8:06 5:02
Started upper 30's, then stuck
to mid 30's.
4/27: 6 X (3 min T / 1 min E) 1:06:23 9 14.5 7:23 4:36
4/28: Easy run on
treadmill + 5k rowing 58:45 7 11.2 8:24 5:13
4/29: Short LR with hill
reps thrown in 1:40:03 13 20.9 7:42 4:48
4/30: Easy treadmill run,
then stationary bike for
30 min, then 2.5k rowing 58:15 7 11.2 8:20 5:11
Totals: 51 miles running / 82.1k; 6:47:33. 12.5k rowing; 50:28
Just working on base, leg speed and tempo work before I start the dreaded VO2 max workouts for my short distance summer races. Also hills. The rest of the year needs to have lots and lots of hills.
Are we there, yet?
Spent the week building up mileage just in time to start tapering again for my 50K on May 13th. Also had my semi-annual cardiologist appointment, and he didn't see any heart related issues with my low BP at my last race. I'll just have to experiment on fluid and electrolyte intake to see what works. Trying to heat acclimate in case it's warm at the race, but local weather is not cooperating. Today was the 4th straight day of running in a cool rain.
D3 (Dawn to Dusk to Dawn) should be an interesting one to watch after I finish my 50K. I think there will be several runners going after national age group records and at least one going for a US National 24-Hour Team qualifier. Jeff Hagen in the 24-Hour and Gene Dykes in the 12-Hour are both former or current national record holders and both are in my age group. I expect both will run the first 50K of their respective races faster than I do.
Anyway my weekly total was 45.9, which I am quite pleased with.
2024 Races:
03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles
05/11 - D3 50K, 9:11:09 05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour
06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.
I know exactly who you are talking about - Dr Peter Attia. I like him a lot, he is very practical and what I also like, he is close to many of us age wise (he is 50) and he was also a maniac athlete in his 30s and early 40s . I just bought his new book and it is a good stuff - nothing sensational but a lot of practical advise.
Btw, Fishy and Mikkey, when I was talking about strength training, I didn't mean its practical use for marathon training - I was talking about strength training (aka muscle gain, at least some, if possible) as a part of life, where cardio and weight/strength training are equal partners, not one existing as a support for another.
Fishy, belated congrats on your great time in Boston - that's impressive improvement comparing to your previous marathon!
I also saw some mentioning of me using Half marathon training plan from Pfitz book. Ha-ha... Call it anyway you want, and yes, I used that HM plan for my PR marathon, but when weekly mileage in your training goes beyond 100 miles, you can call it 5K plan, it still should be a great plan for good marathon I think my weekly max for that "Half" plan was 114 miles And it was chosen for two reasons - because I was tired of using Hansons plan - I got to the point where I ran from 8 miles to up to 14 miles at MP for 10-12 weeks and it became so boring... And second - I really liked LT workouts in Pfitz plan - they were really challenging - and the rest of the structure was pretty good too. I just added - 4-6 miles to his plan's long runs.
paces PRs - 5K - 5:48 / 10K - 6:05 / HM - 6:14 / FM - 6:26 per mile
Intl. correspondent
Cal - I'm happy to see you here again and also happy to hear the good news about your advances in self betterment.
The gut is your second brain, it controles a myriad of things including your mood. Healthy food leads to good intestinal function which leads to a considerably better life, less sickness and lower anxiety levels.
I've recently read an excellent book recommended by Jmac about this subject and I found it very interesting -> https://www.amazon.com/Athletes-Gut-Digestion-Nutrition-Distress/dp/194800710X
Strength training - It's not about beach muscles, it's about longevity and health. It's about not tripping or twisting an ankle in your 50s.It's about not falling and breaking your hips. It's also about a stronger back. Akin to having a moderate diet, it's not about extending your life span for 6 months, it's about improving your quality of life now. Do note that running is also a form of strength training, you're essentially doing 10 thousand reps of a single leg squat.
Of course it can have positive effects on your running, for instance it gives you a meaner kick and it massively reduces the risk of injury, because a stronger/more stable core and upper legs handle better the brunt of running so the smaller muscles are not over exerted.
It can also have negative effects on your running if you get injured while doing strength training, this happened to me a couple of times already.
Piwi - Yeah, Portugal is very safe as well, I think it ranks 4th in the world in safety. Women walk around with their smartphones on their back pockets, and people take phone calls everywhere (Something you wouldn't do if you were concerned somebody would snatch your phone and run away). There are no bars on the windows, and most houses don't even have a fence. Porto is also small, a little over 200K people, that helps. I have a feeling crime grows exponentially after a city reaches 1 million people.
Citystrides - I now got to the hard part of this challenge of running every street, which is to run on riskier parts of town. I still have a few streets to complete. I've been going at it with a guerrilla tactic of passing close to 7am when most are still asleep and not spending too much time on these bad neighbourhoods. The idea is that I get in, run the street, and get out. I'm not concerned about the worker families living there, rather about being noticed by the local drug gangs/teenage Rambo wannabes (which thankfully tend to wake up late). Thankfully there aren't many "risk areas", I've mostly completed 2 of them, and the other one should be safer cause it's closer to downtown (that is, it's quicker to get the F out if needed).
The other puzzle to solve is the doggy neighbourhood I ran yesterday. So many stray dogs. I'm considering walking those streets instead as I know running triggers the dogs. I may also choose a very rainy day to do so. I'd be nice if there was something like a kevlar suit that looks like normal clothing but is un-biteable, that'd be really nice. The anti dog bite jump suits seem like they'd draw too much attention and be harder to run in.
PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021
Up next: some 800m race (or time trials) / Also place in the top 20% in a trail race
Tool to generate Strava weekly
Cobra Commander Keen
Trying to catch up from about a week in Denver on a work trip, so just a quick blurb from me and a few shout-outs. Running there was interesting - all at once it seemed that 25-30% of my fitness had just evaporated, but at the same time my HR was massively low for the effort the entire time. I ran the OKC Memorial 5k on Saturday morning off ~4 hours of sleep after a day of travel in 18:31. This was much slower than what I though I'd be capable of, but looking back at it even though the effort felt right my average HR was about what I'd expect for a marathon and my max HR (both of these from a chest strap) was closer to what I'd expect at the end of a HM and there certainly was never that 5k burn in the legs or lungs. Odd.
The 5k was neat in that I lined up next to Dick Beardsley and two 2:35 marathoners - one of which was on a pair of running blades and holds the world record for fastest marathon on dual prosthetics.
5 days until race day!
DKT - Congrats on the huge 5k PR! All that easy aerobic running for ultras is likely paying off, you could likely go sub 20 if you put in a 5k focused cycle or so. That first race at CIM ended far worse than I wanted, but also far better than Dallas 2019 (stomach bug struck hard mid-race).
RP - That RR is another work of art.
Also, $300/mo for coaching? I have a website for you to look at...
Cal - Welcome back here and (it seems) to the paleo-ish / ancestral health realms.
5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22
Upcoming Races:
OKC Memorial 5k - April 27
Bun Run 5k - May 4
RP - ditto to what Keen said, you could be coached by Luke Humphrey himself for less than 300.
You can easily find better, cheaper and local options at teamrunrun.com
Problem Child
cal I'm glad you came back. I'll put more effort into CIM since it appears there will be three members from here showing up. I might make a solo trip and hang out longer. Last time I met JMac and you I was on a high but had to get back home. I don't think my wife wanted to stand around and discuss running anymore. Some of those words you typed out remind me of stuff I learned in college. I also agree running isn't EVERYTHING in life. I went through a low spot in December and January where I had all the time in the world to do amazing running, but I didn't want to. Hope you, or whoever is impacted, are getting things dialed in. I'm guessing there are some supplements involved so hopefulyl it's all working. Like I said online I do actually get some sense of joy when you're having joy, and after my December 2022 (actually everything between CIM and Boston) I hope you can find some joy. Even if it's at a slower pace.
Also, thanks for the congratulations on Boston. I appreciate hearing people are happy for me about something I could be proud of after putting in lots of work then seeing the success.
marky mark a local runner/trier did a test in the VF3 and 2s. He said his VF2 with 50 miles on them felt smoother, and the VF3 felt more cushioned. If it was me I'd race the VF3. Otherwise "why did I buy them if I wasn't going to use them? There has to be a first time so when is the first time?" Oh and I'm totally willing to wake up early if I can somehow watch you battle this "Caden" mate.
keen I had to look up the guy you mentioned. Also, it has been a while since I looked into the cost of coaching. One option. another option (previously the most expensive in town who now does virtual training only). Since my brother-in-law ruined my "free trailer storage" option coaching money is going away.
Mmerkle I can get hills in training if I want, and I can avoid them if I want. The Sunday group I typically run with has the 8 mile loop I WISH we would have done. Someone apparently put a note saying "do not use" on it so they kept doing the same boring flat loops. I really miss the OLD Saturday run group I joined in 2016 after my first marathon because they'd pick a course and I wouldn't know HOW hill it was, but I knew there would be at least some hills. I live in the "flatter" part of town and I can get 6.5 miles of uphill with about 1,600 ft of gain just leaving my house. So yeah, it is easy to get vert. Heck...the hill by my work is something like 1,000 ft of gain with 3 miles of running and it is all trail. I've just avoided it because snow/self-supported "marathon" nonsense.
Fishy I SERIOUSLY considered texting you a photo of my watch Sunday morning. I didn't want to ruin the surprise.
Jmac glad you're back to running in some form. I hope it gets figured out too. Even if it's just Sub-3 after Sub-3. Heck, after Boston and "talking shit" about going for a 2:50 at CIM I might actually believe you're right about me possibly being a 2:4x marathoner.
Piwi bummer on the RB meet up. I had something similar planned during Boston training, and had to back out both times. Hope you kick whatever's bugging you.
Flavio Perhaps you're on to something. Maybe I tolerate it better, or maybe I just accept it as "either quit now, or just STFU because bitching isn't going to change anything" on race day. Possibly part of me "I don't have time to tolerate bullshit" approach most people at my work don't like. As for the gang infested areas....if you're out there early enough it shouldn't be a problem. I had the chat with a friend of mine and said "They know I'm not here to infiltrate their turf. They know I know I don't belong here, and they're not going to mess with me because I'm not going to mess with them. Its as if everyone knows I'm just passing through minding my own business and I'm not a threat." So the earlier you're heading through their neighborhood the higher chance they're just sleeping in.
Research the book "Endure"
As a side note...I ran through Native American/Indian/Tribal land as part of a December morning. Freezing cold (literally) and tribal land has it's own laws. Literally, you might as well be in a foreign country because America's laws don't apply there. We jogged through, a few people saw us and one cheered us on, and we kept to ourselves then left. It actually felt strange in the "this is technically a foreign country so I'd better be on my best behavior" sort of way.
also, fuck dogs with bad owners.
My week:
I did this thing where I went running and maybe blew a few people's minds with my life choices.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
RP- Maybe you should try to find some hills for your training. 1,500 is really only challenging if it's downhill!!
You're not inaccurate. I'll aim for 3,000 ft of gain for long runs. 1,600 ft half marathons really aren't challenging. More "why would I pay money when I could do this without the crowd?"
something I forgot to mention was the run on 4/27 made me feel weird. I'd done a warm up mile, sprinted a hill segment (beat myself by 1 second to confirm my second place) then started to feel like garbage. I had a metallic/blood taste in my mouth, the tongue felt kind of swollen, and it didn't go away regardless of my heart rate being low for a run. I stopped the run and walked back to the office. I'm pretty sure it was due to not sleeping well, and probably too much caffeine. I felt fine the next day without the workout. I haven't ever felt this way before as far as I'm aware of. It was just odd. Very odd.
Recently found these for strength training and injury prevention if anyone else wants to check them out.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4Q2pKEqAwep7XFGnuS3445VzfU_2c2rK
https://sparkhealthyrunner.com/podcast/
RP - I was more referring to post race pain. It seems adrenaline takes care of any pain during the race, unless it's cramps.Thanks for bouncing back ideas re: CityStrides, it seems we are in agreement about stuff.Also, damn, 3000 feet in elevation during a long run 😱🤯? I've just run 1700 and thought I was doing well, now I see I gotta pump my numbers up, mine are rookie numbers 😁
Mother of Cats
Hi all - jumping in late this week.
Cal - I am really glad to see you back. The thread was not the same without you (I really appreciate your blunt, open insights), and I enjoy the Mikkey/Cal banter.
Marky_Mark - good luck this weekend! I've actually lent my VF3s to a friend to try - I told her if she liked them she could buy them for half-price from me (they only have 11 miles on them).
Steve - good week. I like doing marathon workouts on tired (I call them "pre-fatigued" legs) - I think it's better prep for the marathon.
Piwi - I hope you feel better!
Flavio - we all have our thing. I have a friend who cannot stand birds (geese, pigeons) on the ground near her when she runs. Stay safe as you continue City Strides.
I’ve always wondered how much strength training matters for amateur marathoners as some people do really well with none.
My 2 cents is that it matters more and more as you get older and is especially important if you are injury prone.
DavePNW - it is good to see you posting a week again, and I am sorry about missing Eugene - that sucks. Random attempt at name dropping - the male winner this year (who also ran an OTQ - his big goal) is from my area and is the husband of a woman I pool-run with.
FIshy - I'm always impressed at how much work you can handle. Looking good for this close to Boston.
RP - I still need to read the race report - I promise I'll get to it. The dog picture is funny because it's true.
CK - Here is an interesting article on returning to sea level after altitude.
Key quote: "From an applied standpoint, athletes who experience a high level of ventilatory acclimatization or mechanical limitations to ventilatory flow [during altitude training] may be better off with a period of time at sea level before competing."
Merkle - I like the structure and diversity of your week.
WCRunner - do you have access to a sauna? I've found 10-20 minutes of sitting in one set to 180 degrees is very helpful for acclimation.
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.