Pftiz's plans do seem fairly brutal. They don't look brutal on paper, but in real life... Like I said, I'll be using some of hit stuff and a good chunk of Daniels. I like how Daniles combines some threshold running with long and medium/long runs. Look like those will help a lot in dealing with the intensity (pain) of racing. It's way too early to start setting goals yet, but I look at where I'm at now and think i might be set to rpepare to get ready to make preparations to prepare myself to start contemplating thinking about breaking four hours this time around. I'm so tempted to do some cruise intervals this week. I love them with all of my heart. My achilles feels fine, but I think I should give it another week before running fastish on it. Today's just a short 4 miler during lunch. I will probably throw some striders in just to test things out. And I say again unto you: FALL RUNNING WEATHER IS HERE!!!

Inertia, I have heard really good things about this Dick Beardsley Training Program. I think if you built a large base before, and then start the marathon training program you'd do really well. I've heard that people find the hill work placed perfectly in the plan.

Dgb, Do you think the first poster was suggesting I wasn't running enough because I did not run 80 mpw? I thought I trained pretty hard for this one. I had a crap load of cramps this summer that sort of prevented me from running fast somedays, but then I look at the log and think I had some pretty amazing weeks of pace runs, moderate runs (tend to be half slow, half fast) and strong long runs. The last few weeks my runs are a little off, but I had races in there, so I'm thinking I still trained pretty well. My body is not ready to run more than 60 miles in a week. Maybe one day, not this year. I think I need more hard workouts not more miles. I do like the 40-45 mpw pre marathon base, but I think I'd like to cutback at the start of marathon training. I think I could run at faster paces if I started the program with a cutback. I think I might have also peaked a little early. (Who knew?) I'm not trying to qualify for the olympics. My goal was not to train for the fastest finish. First goal make it to the starting line, something I didn't do last year, and second was to beat 4:06. I was little afraid of too much speed work because I thought I'd increase injury risk. More pace miles just seemed safer and smarter. My gut feel is that I have more endurance. Those 20's seem way too easy for me. (Even at 9:22 pace.) I think the smartest person on these forums might be Nobby (I'd love if he could coach me, lives just 60 miles north of me), and he doesn't not buy into the slow long runs. I like the fast long runs too but got a little injured doing that last year, oh but I ran fast all week too (March 27 - April 1 2007, should log that as stupid). So that's why I stayed in the 9:20 range (on the LRs I wasn't wanting to vomit). Sub-4 is a 9:10, so I thought hell fast enough. Nobby also says too many runners are exhausted, burned out when they follow those long hard programs. Go read his advice for runningwild. He made "his girl" run a 3 hour fast run for her last LR. She was running a 3:40 marathon before he trained her.

3 miles...dying for fall to arrive here although technically it has, but the temps still say summer

Inertia, Here is a nice marathon building program. Maybe too easy for you.

Thank you Bugs. If it weren't for the threat of racing you and my my utter lack of self control and common sense, I wouldn't have done all those faster paced miles.

No that's not how it went down. The threat of racing me caused all the speed work before the 20 miler. The ego of running a LR that fast, I'll blame that on Shan asking you if those would be logged stupid. Shan, We must always say the opposite to men when we think they should do something. Dave, Go run all your runs this week as fast as you can.

Kimmie, Welcome. This place really needed some new blood. We've had a few drifters lately and that leaves me only with just Dave to tease. I see you're a personal trainer, very cool. You can kick our butts into shape! That MCM marathon looks very fun. You've ran five marathons - very cool. Using a training plan or self-made plan? I ran last night with two 2:45 hr marathoners at running club. Ya, I let em go at 2 miles. 4 miles tempo this morning in the rain with friend. yikes. Legs are tired, thought this taper was suppose to be easy.