Marathon Training and Discussions

1

Advice needed on 30+ km LR (Read 231 times)

    Hallo, As I'm getting no reactions in the "general running" forum, I hope to be luckier on this one: "I would need your advice on the a.m. subject: In my case, running is fun. Running anything between 10 and 26-28 km is fun. Running 30+ km is definitely NOT fun. The problem is that as preparation for my first marathon in June, I'm supposed to run 30+ km every second week and so far (2 x 33 km, 2 x 31 km) I've finished pretty much dead. Today, after 31 of the expected 33 km, I just ran out of fuel, no special pain, the motor just stopped, and there was no way to get the engine back in action again. Right now I don't see how I can keep dying for 10 more km in order to finish the 42km. I'm really wondering: - Is 30+km ever going to be "fun", or should I resign to suffer every second weekend until the marathon is over? - I just carry 1 l of gatorade+water (drink belt). Should I consider doing shorter loops, in order to get home and reload again? - May be you'll say my training pace is too fast, but I have the feeling that if I slow down, after 3 hours or so, my legs will just get fed up and stop anyway As I just said, your advice is more than welcome, it would be really great to find a way to enjoy even the "very long" (at least for me) training runs Thanks in advance Rafa"

    Targets 2012 1) No injuries 2) Keep having fun 3) Some kind of PR


    Imminent Catastrophe

      Urano, What's happening to you at 30 km is commonly called "the wall". You have used up all your muscle glycogen, and you bonk. It's what makes the marathon so hard! There are a few things you can do. 1. Carb load a couple of days before the long runs, to store some glycogen in your liver. 2. Slow down a bit. If you're aiming for a 4-hour marathon you may need to do your long runs slower--this will use less glycogen and more fat. Shoot for a 9-minute/mile or 5:35/km pace on your long runs, that equates to a 3:56 marathon pace. 3. Refuel during your run. You should consume about 200-300 calories/hour. Try gels or more sports drink. I don't really enjoy long runs either but if you can keep from bonking they will be a lot more pleasant! BTW interesting avatar. Are you an astronomer?

      "Able to function despite imminent catastrophe"

       "To obtain the air that angels breathe you must come to Tahoe"--Mark Twain

      "The most common question from potential entrants is 'I do not know if I can do this' to which I usually answer, 'that's the whole point'.--Paul Charteris, Tarawera Ultramarathon RD.

       

      √ Tahoe Rim Trail 100M 20/21 July 2013

      Boston Marathon 21 April 2014

      Tahoe Rim Trail 100M 19/20 July 2014


      Hawt and sexy

        Looking at your log and comparing recent race times to recent long run times, the answer is simple. You are running your long runs too fast. Slow down by another minute per mile at least. You should never bonk on a long run. Add more hydration and maybe some gummy bears and all is good.

        I'm touching your pants.

          Hi, I didn't sleep that much last night trying to figure out "what's going wrong", and my best guess was exactly what you're mentioning, that I'm running too fast. So far I've got (roughly speaking) two paces: around 4:30 min/km in races (10-20 km) and 5 min/km in trainings (10km-30km) what, thinking about it, doesn't make that much sense, so I guess I have to learn specially on the longer ones to slow down ... next attempt in two weeks. About eating, well yesterday was the first time ever I took some food with me (dried bananas), just a few slices, as I wanted to check how my stomach was feeling about it. I heard no complains, so next time, I'll take more food. Hopefully with more food and slower paces I can run the 35 km that are planned in 2 weeks. About my avatar, no I'm not an astronomer, though it was some kind of childhood dream. At a certain point I had to consider whether to study something nice or something useful ... so I became an IT guy. Regards Rafa

          Targets 2012 1) No injuries 2) Keep having fun 3) Some kind of PR

            Perhaps the problem with responses is that not so many of us are very good thinking in min/km. I would have to agree that you're probably taking things too fast on the longer runs. I finally started "understanding" the relationship between distance and pace after my first marathon. Interestingly enough, 35 km+ feels rewarding and not so painful since doing the marathon, despite my long training runs being 75 sec/km faster (2 min/mile). I remember when my half-marathon distance runs felt that way. I think on top of adjusting your run pace, you definitely need some sodium and sugars for every hour run, plus water. I generally run with a full 1.8L Camelbak and at least one gel for every 8 km (I like having one or two extra available.) Beyond this advice, you need to: -Repeat the same distance or longer a few more times -Change routes, scenery -Add, remove, or change partners -Remove any factors that cause you be less motivated, or that may cause you difficulties For example: - I catch up with someone running 1/2 my distance for the second half of my run. - I find a different park to run through - I dropped using music because I find myself less motivated if I have problems with the music. - I get up as early as possible to avoid running across people whose activities that may interfere with my running.

            "You can't untrain for Monkey" - bdub

              Your pace is a little fast but based on your HM PR it's actually a pace you should be able to run at. You probably would want to slow down a little to avoid burnout or over training. Save those big efforts for the actual race, not your training. I'd look more closely at your nutrition for the day or 2 before your long runs. You should be eating mostly carbs and lean protein with very little fat. Treat those days the same as you would for the few days before an actual marathon. It took me a while to notice the correlation before my diet and my training runs but now that I pay attention my long runs don't turn into death marches.
              Son, when you participate in sporting events, it's not whether you win or lose; it's how drunk you get. -- Homer Simpson


              Imminent Catastrophe

                One more thing--training slowly also benefits your training by keeping you in the aerobic zone, this will have a better training effect than doing long runs in a aerobic/anaerobic zone. There's a user group on low heart rate training with a lot of good info on aerobic training: http://www.runningahead.com/groups/LOWHRTR I don't necessarily think you have to train that way 100% of the time as some do, but doing your long runs in that range is a very good idea and also has less chance of injury. You might even consider using a heart rate monitor to gauge your effort.

                "Able to function despite imminent catastrophe"

                 "To obtain the air that angels breathe you must come to Tahoe"--Mark Twain

                "The most common question from potential entrants is 'I do not know if I can do this' to which I usually answer, 'that's the whole point'.--Paul Charteris, Tarawera Ultramarathon RD.

                 

                √ Tahoe Rim Trail 100M 20/21 July 2013

                Boston Marathon 21 April 2014

                Tahoe Rim Trail 100M 19/20 July 2014

                  Hi, Two weeks later, and after listening to all of you, I managed to even "enjoy" the 38 km I did today Big grin. I slowed down, got more fuel, got home after 26 km for a loong drink and a reload, and the last 12 km were quite fantastic !! Two questions: - I lost 2 kg during the training today, can this be considered as normal, or should I try to eat more during the long run? - somebody mentioned that a cold bath is a good idea after the run. Well, I tried it and almost got a shock. I guess after losing 2 kg, my body needed to keep some warmth instead of giving it away, right? Thanks in advance Rafa

                  Targets 2012 1) No injuries 2) Keep having fun 3) Some kind of PR


                  Blaine Moore (MM#2867)

                    - I lost 2 kg during the training today, can this be considered as normal, or should I try to eat more during the long run?
                    This is normal and carrying extra food won't help. It's just water weight that you lost (unless you had some diarhea on the way which is doubtful given that you enjoyed the run.) Knowing your sweat rate is an advantage going into your marathon because you can better estimate how often to take water at the water stops. When you get done running, drink some water. Since you lost 2kg, you should aim to drink 2kg of water (about 1.5 to 2 liters) - but don't drink it all at once since you'll just piss it back out. Drink it gradually over the span of the rest of the day. I'll just drink a glass of water as soon as I finish, then have two more glasses of water over the course of the next hour.

                    Run to Win
                    24 Marathons, 17 Ultras, 16 States (Full List)




                    Future running partner.

                      - somebody mentioned that a cold bath is a good idea after the run. Well, I tried it and almost got a shock. I guess after losing 2 kg, my body needed to keep some warmth instead of giving it away, right?
                      I occasionally take ice baths after long runs myself. I would recommend waiting at least an hour after your run to do so. Let your body cool down some before joining the polar bear club. My routine after I run long is, As soon as I finish, I walk at least a quarter mile to begin cool down process. Then get a large glass of water and start stretching lightly for about 15-30 minutes. In between stretches I take drinks. When done stretching I drink a gatorade, and eat a breakfast sandwich for some immediate protein and carbs. Then I take an ice bath. Sit in it for about 10 minutes. Follow up with a warm (NOT HOT!) shower to get freshened up. Then hit the sack. When eating about 30min to hr after a long run your body absorbs a lot more nutrients then it normally does. The protein will help you heal faster, the carbs will help you replenish your energy. The ice bath increases blood flow to help speed up the healing process. The nap just helps you feel not so tired for the rest of the day.


                      Imminent Catastrophe

                        Hi, - somebody mentioned that a cold bath is a good idea after the run. Well, I tried it and almost got a shock. I guess after losing 2 kg, my body needed to keep some warmth instead of giving it away, right? Rafa
                        A cold bath after a long run can really help by quickly bringing down the inflammation. I run the tub full of cold water, get in and adjust for a few minutes, then add the ice, that way it's not such a shock. And wear a towel or shirt to keep your upper body warm or you will quickly get chilled.

                        "Able to function despite imminent catastrophe"

                         "To obtain the air that angels breathe you must come to Tahoe"--Mark Twain

                        "The most common question from potential entrants is 'I do not know if I can do this' to which I usually answer, 'that's the whole point'.--Paul Charteris, Tarawera Ultramarathon RD.

                         

                        √ Tahoe Rim Trail 100M 20/21 July 2013

                        Boston Marathon 21 April 2014

                        Tahoe Rim Trail 100M 19/20 July 2014