RunningAHEAD - Topic: A question of cadence. hills, drills and injury prevention.

kooky2003

Now that was a bath...

posted: 4/14/2007 at 4:09 PM

Firstly I would like to know if any of you have any input along the lines of whether or not it would be useful for me to run the hills and inclines, at a higher cadence. It seems logical to me that smaller steps (particularly on the downhill) will result in less inmpact on my skeletal system, is this right? As my runs increase slowly and steadily in length I am going to have to run a lot of hills. My town is built on volcanic beds and short of running myself insane on the short, flat loop in the centre - I got some climbing to do! Anyhow I like running hills and I am really looking forward to hitting some of the rolling routes that lay at my feet nearby. Now I know that we discussed the cadence thing before in a humungous thread - but I am wondering if I can use cadence to keep me off the bench. I have little choice but to do most of my runs on concrete, at the moment all of my runs are on concrete as the track has just turned into a soccer ground for the Autumn season. Will a higher cadence help or am I just worrying about something that is minor and irrelevant at my stage of the game. I was also wondering if drills could be useful by improving my strength and maximising my body biomechanics. I've had my running video taped twice (once by the Podiatrist and once by a Sport's Shoe Analyst) and whilst my left leg is in perfect alignment my right leg (the injured one) has a minor pronation. Orthotics are going to be considered at my next podiatrist appointment but they think it likely that I won't need them. Just wondering. I got a lot of time to wonder as I can only run on alternate days. Claire xxx

jlynnbob "HTFU, Kookie's distal tibia"

Where's my closet? I need to get back in it.

kooky2003

Now that was a bath...

posted: 4/15/2007 at 6:48 PM

Guess this answers my question... Cadence The single most important aspect of running gait efficiency AND injury prevention is cadence (steps per minute) A high cadence prevents over-striding where the foot strikes in front of the center of gravity and therefore creates a "braking" action slowing the forward progression of your body An increased cadence with (more steps per minute) automatically dictates less time that the foot is in contact with the ground, decreasing the stress of the lower leg muscles and structures in the foot and helps prevent over use injuries 180 steps-per-minute (30 steps every 10 seconds) works well to prevent over-striding Whether you are tall or short, running a six-minute mile or ten minute mile, when you are running on flat surfaces you should maintain 180 steps per minute. Got that from here http://www.santamonicaclassic.com/training.asp which has some other interesting stuff if anyone fancies a peek. This thread made me smile... Mad ultra people discuss the tactics of downhill speed Claire xxx

jlynnbob "HTFU, Kookie's distal tibia"

Where's my closet? I need to get back in it.

mikeymike

posted: 4/15/2007 at 10:28 PM

I was going to say that I think running with a high cadence all the time (up, down and on flat ground) is generally a good thing, but you seem to have answered that question nicely. There probably are drills you can do to continue to develop better mechanics and improve leg strength etc. You might just add some strides a couple of times a week once you get up to speed. But overall I think your mechanics will improve on their own over time the more you run.

Runners run

RunChicRun

madness baby

posted: 4/15/2007 at 11:31 PM

Claire, looks like you've found a race in my area for me! I might have to add that SM Classic in, it's just down the street. Wink

Thanks for the info. Glad you're back running Smile

deb

Scout7

posted: 4/16/2007 at 7:37 AM

OK, here's the thing....Trying to "force" a change in cadence can also cause injury. Generally speaking, most runners all run within about 10% of the "magic 180". Your cadence will vary based on terrain and speed, to some greater or lesser degree. There has been no scientific proof that running at 180 SPM makes you faster, more efficient, or less prone to injury. That number is a rule of thumb created by Daniels, to which he gave no explanation as to where it came from. That being said, there are a number of drills you can do. Here's some: http://www.runningplanet.com/training/running-drills.html For the more nerdy amongst us, a study on running form: http://www.elitetrack.com/articles/weyand.pdf

olethros

posted: 4/16/2007 at 8:29 AM
modified: 4/16/2007 at 8:30 AM

Re the study, well, duh, the more you push, the faster you go! Sadly they did not publish the complete data, nor did they use accelerometers, so we cannot look at correlations between vertical and horizontal forces, but I imagine competent runners have similar vertical/horizontal force component ratios.

mikeymike

posted: 4/16/2007 at 8:49 AM
modified: 4/16/2007 at 8:52 AM

Actually I remember Daniels giving a pretty good explanation of where the 180 number came from. It wasn't scientifically derived but observed. Daniels found that almost all elite athletes as well as almost all collegiate runners tend to run with a turnover of 180 steps per minute at any pace above a jog. He concluded this must be the most efficient natural gate for humans. The last time I tried to force a faster cadence was when I was injured. When I was coming back from Achilles tendonitis in 2002/2003, I started off by running a couple easy miles on the treadmill at the Y before weights. In order to reduce the impact on my lower legs, I tried to run as lightly on my feet as possible. I developed what I called "stealth mode" in which I tried to run as quietly as possible. What I discovered was that in order to run silently, I needed to run at a high cadence. It became obvious that this reduced the impact forces on my legs. I don't need scientific proof to tell me that by running with a high cadence you reduce injury risk--just like I don't need a scientific study to show me that if I put my hand on the hot stove, it will burn.

Runners run

Scout7

posted: 4/16/2007 at 9:03 AM

A) Not all elites run at 180. B) I've met people who got injured trying to run at a higher cadence. Mostly, they developed issues with their shins. My point is this: There's a right number for everyone. That number is not always 180. For some it's higher, for others it's lower. If you are significantly overstriding, then I would look into the issue more. If your problems are not caused by overstriding, then I wouldn't be as concerned about it.

Jeff

Why is it sideways?

posted: 4/16/2007 at 9:30 AM

I'll weigh with my own experience. When I'm tired towards the end of a tempo or race, I've found that messing with my cadence can often yield good results. I do have a cadence "sweet spot"--and I don't always naturally fall into it. So, it might be worthwhile to experiment with different cadences, particularly late in your long runs or tempos. I'll also echo the usefulness of drills. I think that drills give you better awareness of your stride mechanics and sort of give you different possibilities for running the same pace. This is also a seldom-mentioned benefit of speedwork. Good runners can run efficiently over a wide variety of paces, which indicates to me that they have control over a range of stride-lengths and cadences. Finally, drills done properly will strengthen some muscles that are needed for balance in running but that don't get worked as hard in the standard running motion. This can help prevent injury and increase efficiency. My favorite drill we called "quick legs." We would jog slowly along a flat surface and focus first on, say, the left leg--every two or three steps popping it around through the full running motion as quickly as possible. Then work on the right leg. It takes some coordination. When you master one leg at a time, you can begin to alternate them. I do them as part of my pre-race warmup and before hard workouts.

kooky2003

Now that was a bath...

posted: 4/16/2007 at 3:40 PM
modified: 4/16/2007 at 3:43 PM

Thanks all. Scout - I too have heard that messing with cadence can cause injury but I think in my case it will be worth a shot. I read Janell's post over on the 100 mile high club too and I understand where you are both coming from, but I would not be increasing my cadence to run faster - rather increasing my cadence and also making a notable effort to run slower. In other words, it is broken - so I can fix it. At the moment I was considering this as a tactic to run hills but after reading Mike's post on his injury recovery I know exactly what he is talking about. I too have developed this sort of mode that I use if my leg feels at all pushed. I take small light steps, I know they are less impact, I can feel the soft padding as opposed to the thump, thump of my normal pace. I have never been much of a lady, I am quite heavy on my feet. Take into consideration too that I am 100% running concrete at the moment. Concrete hills and my physical composition of a 'new runner' are an accident waiting to happen I think. I may need some additional tactics to get me through this injury recovery period that would be unessessary 'Focking around' for other runners. The last two runs have taken their toll on my legs. I was stupid admittedly, upping distance notably and adding hills at the same time, but I have to find a way to move forward as well. I am at least listening to my body better and I am backing off for a couple of days and will reduce the distance again (probably). Zoomy mentioned in another post about me doing some cross training. I'm realisticaly more likely to become a virgin than to start cross training. I don't want to cross train. I want to run. She had a great point though, so now, after reading Jeff's reply (and thanks for the links brother Scout) I wonder if I could do drills instead of cross training. I'd be a whole lot happier because that sort of feels like running stuff and anything that makes you look peculiar blows my goat.

jlynnbob "HTFU, Kookie's distal tibia"

Where's my closet? I need to get back in it.

mikeymike

posted: 4/16/2007 at 3:41 PM

I'm sure not all elites run at 180 (I never said they do) but just for kicks I counted the cadence of the elite women's pack as it rolled through Natick today. There were, I think, 8 women in the lead pack and I took turns isolating on each one and counting sixty steps while timing with a stopwatch. Each of them was taking 60 steps in almost exactly 20 seconds, or 180 per minute. Small sample but 8 out of 8 were just about exactly at 180. Earlier, I ran 6 miles in "stealth mode" practicing running silently. The only sound was the rain pelting my rain gear and occasionally my feet splashing in puddles.

Runners run

nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

posted: 1/18/2008 at 12:50 PM

Kooky2003- Check this site lydiardfoundation.org. There are some good specific articles that you might find interesting. Drills will help your boimechanics. Strides are great for working on your running form as well. Try to get out and do some running on trails or soft surfaces that will reduce the risk of injury. When i'm coaching track we do a series of drills/specific exercises to work on running form/speed/effiency it works quite well. the running drills form the running planet are like the ones I've used in the past. Good luck with your running. Cheers

Viich

posted: 1/30/2008 at 2:40 PM

Daniels came up with that number by observing olympic runners between 800m and 10 000m. 800m were faster cadence, but after that it was pretty flat, and 180 was the average with most runners very close to it. He also found that most ~~good~~ fast runners cadence actually decreases a little as their speed goes up.

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A question of cadence. hills, drills and injury prevention. (Read 638 times)