Sub-4 Marathon Group

Hanson & Pfitz Discussion (Read 382 times)


Bad Ass

    This thread is to continue the Hanson & Pfitz discussion we've had in the November and December donuts, so it does not get lost in the shuffle of new threads.  Please ask your questions and put your suggestions here.  I'll try to copy the previous discussions here later.

    Damaris, Marathon Maniac, Ultra Runner

    Next:  RnR Country Music Half Marathon

    Blog

    "The most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire."

    SprinklesRunner


    Whippet

      I am deciding whether I am ready for Pfitz- I run about 30-40 mpw and have two marathons behind me.  I don't seem to be injury prone, just accident-prone, so I'm welcoming any thoughts.  My alternative would be a Higdon Intermediate plan.  I did Novice 2 for Philly and ran a 3:56 .  I'd like to break 3:50 by a significant margin.

      13.1: 1:45 | 26.2: 3:55


      Smashy!!!

        I am deciding whether I am ready for Pfitz- I run about 30-40 mpw and have two marathons behind me.  I don't seem to be injury prone, just accident-prone, so I'm welcoming any thoughts.  My alternative would be a Higdon Intermediate plan.  I did Novice 2 for Philly and ran a 3:56 .  I'd like to break 3:50 by a significant margin.

         

        The major difference between Pfitz and Higdon is all the quality in Pfitz. I think with either plan you'd break 3:50. But personally I think the Higdon plan has less a chance of overtraining you, so I'd lean toward it.

        PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)


        Bad Ass

          I did Pfitz 18/70 in 2011 and I loved it.  I think your base being at 30-40mpw is good for Pfitz 18/55.  I have not done Hanson so I have no recommendations on that but my experience with Pfitz has been good.  Higdon is too low mileage and if you have not had any injuries in 2012 I would do Pfitz.

           

          I am deciding whether I am ready for Pfitz- I run about 30-40 mpw and have two marathons behind me.  I don't seem to be injury prone, just accident-prone, so I'm welcoming any thoughts.  My alternative would be a Higdon Intermediate plan.  I did Novice 2 for Philly and ran a 3:56 .  I'd like to break 3:50 by a significant margin.

          Damaris, Marathon Maniac, Ultra Runner

          Next:  RnR Country Music Half Marathon

          Blog

          "The most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire."

          ap4


            I did Pfitz 18/70 in 2011 and I loved it.  I think your base being at 30-40mpw is good for Pfitz 18/55.  I have not done Hanson so I have no recommendations on that but my experience with Pfitz has been good.  Higdon is too low mileage and if you have not had any injuries in 2012 I would do Pfitz.

             

             

            Anecdotally, I'd second that.  I just did Hal Higdon Int II for my second marathon, with a couple of extra miles added here and there (2-4 per week) and felt underprepared for my second marathon.  It's easier and less to think about during the training, but I just did my first 20 miler with Pfitz's mult marathon 12 week schedule and felt a LOT stronger than on any of the long runs with Higdon's schedule.  I'll let you know how it really goes in 4.5 weeks though.

            Flinders


            Three Martini Lunch

              Sprinkles,  I used a modified HH Int 2 last summer.  I added miles to the LR and the easy days to make the base-building weeks around 35-40, and the peak weeks about 55-60.  Simple route is the Tuesday and Thursday easy runs, where the plan has 3, 4, and 5 miles, make those 5, 6, and 7.  Another option if you want to do a bit of quality and not worry about hitting a particular workout is to use one of the lengthened easy run days and make it a fartlek, hill, or tempo depending on what you feel like.  I don't have access to a track and hate treadmills, so I don't usually do intervals.

               

              I have a 13 mile and a 16 mile route that I like a lot, so for the LRs, so my planned LR progression was 13, 13, 10, 16, 16, 13, 16, 18, HM, then followed the plan, subbing 13s for the cutback 12s.

               

              Caveat is that I hurt myself (strained a calf) playing rec league softball, so this worked for the first half of training.  I was happy to be able to run for the second half and was simply trusting the base I had built up to get me through the race.

              M: 3:31:56

              HM: 1:37:33


              White Lightning

                Okay during my run I came up with a question about Hansons during my run this afternoon

                 

                Can you replace the speed and strength workout with a hill workout of the same intensity and just run it by HR instead of pace?  Reason I ask, my paths have icy patches I really have to watch out for.  Today there was a very light mist of snow on top and I had a few oh crap moments and I was just running my MP + :90.  I have a couple of really long steep hills around my route, 8% grade ish.  I'm not looking to replace every run but if the paths aren't right, don't want to miss the workout.  Here its not as easy as just moving a run around, the ice could be on the path for two weeks sometimes

                Play the Game Hard!

                SprinklesRunner


                Whippet

                  Thanks everyone for your advice. I liked Higdon but know I can do more. My only injury in  2012 was not really an injury- I ran in the wrong shoes and my calf was sore for months,  no overuse related issues.  I have also become good at knowing how to back off.  I think I will end up doing Pfitz 18/55. 70 is too much for me for sure at this point.

                  13.1: 1:45 | 26.2: 3:55

                  cmb4314


                    I started Pfitz 18/55 this November with a base that I would call 30-35 mpw.  I had done 30-35mpw with pretty good consistency since June and my average for the entire 2ish years I had been logging here on RA was 30mpw.  The lifetime average includes a couple of higher mileage marathon/HM training cycles, as well as some really low mileage months when I had injuries.

                     

                    Overall, I have been pretty durable as a runner.  My past injuries have been relatively minor and nothing chronic - first was an ITBS flare up in September/October of 2011, which then caused foot tendinitis from overcompensating for the injury.  With about 4 weeks of near total rest, I was back up and running pretty regularly.  I have a very crooked gait so the ITBS was an overuse thing from upping the mileage for the marathon - I can keep it in check now with good stretching.  I also had a minor bout with PF last January after an ill advised few miles in minimalist shoes, for which I missed a few runs and turned a few more hard runs into easy runs, but it didn't stick around for long.

                     

                    My body has, thus far, held up remarkably well during the Pfitz schedule.  Right before Christmas I had a stretch of three weeks that were 50-54-48 miles, and I thought I would be seriously needing the recovery week that followed, but really I was feeling pretty good at the end of that, even on the 16 mile LR with 12 at MP that was at the end of the third week (though I'm sure, with the stretch I'm about to enter, I'll be glad I had the recovery week).

                     

                    The only alterations I have made to the plan are to slow down the tempo runs.  A 7 mile tempo run, run at my 15k pace, would take me 57 minutes.  I doubt that he intends for me to run for that long at that aggressive of a pace, nor am I capable of doing so, so I figured I needed to take one of two tacks - 1) slow down the run a la Daniels, such that I was running a pace that, for my VO2max, was appropriate for a ~1 hour tempo run or 2) run at 15k pace, but cut down the duration to be similar to what a faster runner would spend running at that effort.

                     

                    I chose to slow them down - thus far, this seems to be working pretty well.  My max HR is in the upper 190s (I've seen 194 on my HR monitor in the middle of a 5K) and my HR has hovered at 170-180 for the tempo runs I've been doing.

                     

                    The next 5 weeks, including this one, are planned to be 55, 52, 52, 50, 52.  We will see how I feel in 4 weeks Smile

                    My wildly inconsistent PRs:

                    5k: 24:36 (10/20/12)  

                    10k: 52:01 (4/28/12)  

                    HM: 1:50:09 (10/27/12)

                    Marathon: 4:19:11 (10/2/2011) 

                    SprinklesRunner


                    Whippet

                      Cmb- your running history sounds very similar to mine, right down to the itbs.  sounds like I'm in! My base has been 30-35 since may, so I think I'm ready.

                      13.1: 1:45 | 26.2: 3:55

                      DetroitTigerFan


                        I've been reviewing Hansons vs Pfitz book.  From what I can gather :

                         

                        _____________________   Hansons Advanced                       Pfitz                                                                  

                        • Miles                               921 miles (18/63 max)         810 miles (18/55 max) 1100 miles (18/70)
                        • Max long run                             16 miles                     20 miles (18/55)  22 miles (18/70)
                        • Long run pace                    at long run pace range     at long run pace with some work outs at marathon pace
                        • Tune up races                    Not encouraged               Required per plan
                        • Days off                                1 day per week              2 days per week (18/55) 1 day per week (18/70)
                        • Mid week long run         9-13 miles at tempo pace     9-14 miles at long run pace (18/55) 11-15 miles (18/70)
                        • Speedwork                               every week                 VO2 max work outs start after week 8

                        I can add to the table or modify if you'd like - this is just my point of view

                         

                        Talking outloud - Galloway got me to 4:18 and Pfitz last year to 4:07.  What to do this year ? I dont really need to decide what plan i will officially use until April.  I really want to see if any of you transitioned from Pfitz to Hansons for a spring race.

                         

                        • However, i'm wondering what you all think of the Hansons time commitment - running every day except one day per week. This seems tough from a schedule perspective.  Maybe many of you do this already. I don't think i can or want to run 6 days a week.
                        • I love the idea of the Hansons plan and i like the speedwork thoughts. As for the mid week tempo run for Hansons, these are at tempo pace and that may be tough to do in the summer time for fall races vs a Pfitz long run pace.
                        • The Hansons long run thought on maxing at 16 miles is tough for me. I do believe in the psychological benefits of a 20 miler. Last year i did a 22 as a max (which i think was super) and actually a 25 miler for Galloway the year before that (which i regret now)

                        Anyway - hoping to get your feedback ! thanks !

                        PB's     10K 47:15 (9/13)     HM 1:45 (9/13)     M 3:57 (10/13)

                        Running Blog   http://davesdigitaldestinations.blogspot.com/


                        Bad Ass

                          Can you compare the Pfitz 18/70 with Hanson?  Because it is more similar in miles than the 18/55.

                           

                          I'm doing a Pfitz 18/70-like program from now until June.  I am doing most of the workouts during those weeks that are not marathon weeks nor recovery weeks (weeks post marathon).  We'll see how that goes.  I just want to keep my 50-55mpw until then.

                          Damaris, Marathon Maniac, Ultra Runner

                          Next:  RnR Country Music Half Marathon

                          Blog

                          "The most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire."


                          Smashy!!!

                            DTF, there is a lot going on between the two programs, but I'll just throw some food for thought about two things.

                            1) the quality. One significant difference is the level of intensity each calls for on quality days. Not just VO2 max stuff, but also tempos and mp and LR days. If you look down the paces the Hansons prescribe for, say, 4:00 marathon, you'll feel the paces are very reasonable, even the Speed days. You might even be tempted to run them harder. But you shouldn't. What you got to remember about the Hansons program is that it is meant to keep you running 6 days a week, and fatigue you over time. So those paces are chosen for to achieve those purposes. In Pfitz, a quality day can be intense. So intense it may be necessary to take a rest day following it. Hansons have you running more days, but t hey have  you running quality days at lower intensities to allow you to do that.

                             

                            2) the long run. First you gotta evaluate what the purpose of the long run. In my view, it is to build as much endurance as you can while avoiding injury. What do we know about both? Well, why do we run 20 milers? Because its a round number. In many metric countries, people train around a 20K, which is like 18 miles, but they don't underperform their American counterparts. That's because the 20 miler doesn't do anything special in and of itself. We do know that you deplete your glycogen stores after like 90 minutes of aerobic activity. What do we know about injury? Well, most physiologists say that after 3:00 of continuous exercise the risk of injury spikes. So you want your LR to go beyond 90 minutes but not beyond 3 hours. For many of us, runs of 2:30-3:00 will fall around 16 miles. That number is chosen to maximize endurance-building while minimize injury risk. But just as there is nothing magical about 20 miles, there's nothing magical about 16 either. It just happens to be the number that minimizes injury. Theres also nothing magical about the LR itself. Marathon training is about the total program,about what you do around the LR. So that 16 miler fits into a broader program, and it is the broader program that is getting you ready for the marathon.

                             

                            Re: mental confidence gained from a 20 miler. If that is essential to someone, if they need to run a 20 miler to feel ready for the real deal, then the choice is made at the outset: go with Pfitz. But there's more to confidence than the feeling of completing 26.2. For example injury. When I'm injured, I don't feel confident. So part of my decision to not run 20 milers is to help boost my confidence. Also. I feel confident about the marathon because I've run one before, and also I've committed to training. If despite all that, a runner NEEDS to run a 20 miler to feel prepared, then its not really a debate--they gotta go with Pfitz.

                            PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)

                            onemile


                              One more point to add is that the long runs in Hansons are to be done at a moderate pace.  It looks like it is around 30 seconds slower than GMP/mile.  Which is faster than I would run them otherwise.    The easy runs during the week (and every other weekend), are done at 1-2 minutes per mile slower than GMP which is supposed to provide you with enough recovery to hit the paces the rest of the week. Provided I can get through the program - I think all these faster paced miles will definitely benefit me.

                               

                              I also like that Hansons puts the 5k based speedwork at the beginning of the cycle and then adds strength later, which Pfitz does in reverse.  To me it makes more sense to work on your speed, then work on holding that speed.


                              Smashy!!!

                                • "I love the idea of the Hansons plan and i like the speedwork thoughts. As for the mid week tempo run for Hansons, these are at tempo pace and that may be tough to do in the summer time for fall races vs a Pfitz long run pace. "

                                I'm not sure what you mean by "Tempo" paces. If you are referring to Daniel's tempo pace as a pace you can sustain in a race for one hour, then no, the Hansons tempo workout is not at tempo pace. It is at GMP. That should not be hard to do mid-week. If it is hard, then you have not chosen the proper GMP. The Strength workout is only :10 faster than GMP, so that is also not at "tempo pace." Pfitz however does have "true" tempo runs in his plans. The slower paces of the Hansons' tempo and strength workouts are designed to keep you running 6 days a week.

                                 

                                • "However, i'm wondering what you all think of the Hansons time commitment - running every day except one day per week. This seems tough from a schedule perspective.  Maybe many of you do this already. I don't think i can or want to run 6 days a week."

                                The time commitment to me is a wash. Yes, you are running 6 days a week. But most of the runs are under 2 hours. In the Pfitz plan, you get that extra day off, but that MLR is very time consuming. Personally, I am able to get out the door for more runs that are shorter. I will also add that running 6 days a week builds endurance in and of itself. It strengthens the legs and builds endurance in a way that is different than spending a lot of time on your feet in a single run.

                                PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)