Help! I'm Stuck. (Read 5096 times)

xor


    Well, Nobby seems to be saying something along the same lines, unless I am misinterpreting him, and he seems to have achieved positive results for himself, his wife, and his athletes. Dunno . . .
    I'm not saying that nobby or your coach are "wrong" or providing bad advice. I'm merely saying that if I followed the advice of your coach, I wouldn't be doing the things that I like to do. That's all. I seem to recover just fine from runs that are longer than 3 hours. And I know a lot of runners, people I consider fast runners, medium runners, and not fast runners, who do as well. (As an aside, I have also participated in many marathons and triathlons and am a certified trainer. My experience is different from other people's experience. That doesn't make me "wrong" either... for my specific instance and for my goals. Nobby and others have helped out numerous people and are wise, and that's all goodness.)

     

      I'm not saying that nobby or your coach are "wrong" or providing bad advice. I'm merely saying that if I followed the advice of your coach, I wouldn't be doing the things that I like to do. That's all. I seem to recover just fine from runs that are longer than 3 hours.
      You should have clarified this in your post. Obviously, you have different goals (which you have stated elsewhere) than the runners who were seeking advice on this thread. There are, obviously, other legitimate lenses through which running can be seen, but if you're changing lenses, then some indication of the new frame of reference would be valuable. MTA: Okay, I wrote this before your modifications, which help to clarify. Sorry.
      xor


        You should have clarified this in your post. Obviously, you have different goals (which you have stated elsewhere) than the runners who were seeking advice on this thread. There are, obviously, other legitimate lenses through which running can be seen, but if you're changing lenses, then some indication of the new frame of reference would be valuable. MTA: Okay, I wrote this before your modifications, which help to clarify. Sorry.
        I did modify the post, sorry for not doing that before I originally posted. But the "elsewhere" is... earlier in this same thread. So it seems fairly self contained to this discussion. When I read something like "the body does not..." what I hear in my brain is a fellow trainer presenting something as a universal-something that may not exactly be universal. Everyone is different.

         

          But the "elsewhere" is... earlier in this same thread.
          This is true. Good point. I also agree that everyone is different, but I don't think that anyone here understands themselves to be making universal claims; at our best, we are speaking, like you, from personal experience.
            . . . at our best, we are speaking, like you, from personal experience.
            And I, for one, could definitely use more experience, Smile so very much appreciate taking in other people's perspectives. (Cripes! It took me 3 times to try and get this to post. Too bad it isn't more profound. Big grin )

            Leslie
            Living and Running Behind the Redwood Curtain
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            HobbyJogger & HobbyRacer

              I found one article on Kouros' training & outlook on training http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=7582 It's ... different than anything I've read before. He attributes primacy to mental focus and detachment, and apparently trains short stuff ,using races for long runs. Of course, maybe he is different from ordinary people.

              It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.


              HobbyJogger & HobbyRacer

                PS: Kouros uses his races as long runs, he says there (allegedly) -- so in that way he is like srlopez. I'm sure Kouros races far fewer races (albeit the ones he does are probably mostly at very high intensity level).

                It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.

                  the heck with coaches. Just do what your heart tells you to do. Push yourself...you are an athlete after all. Push to your limit...then back off for a week...to then push the limit again...

                   

                  Pushing the limit goes with miles, speed and race distances...what the heck...we all have only one life to live and we are NOT going to be Olympians after all. So just run to your heart's content!!!!!

                  "Champions are everywhereall you need is to train them properly..." ~Arthur Lydiard


                  Slow-smooth-fast

                    Lovin' this thread, I am currently training for Marathon in Octo, and have lined up about 6 x 20milers. Will see how it goes.

                    Last time round I did about 4 20+ and I felt like it gave me a mental edge, what works for the individual I suppose.

                    I think the most important is overall mileage. I am just trying to get in a lot of miles easy pace for the first 12 weeks, as I do want to get in a hundred mile week.

                     

                    MTA, having spoken to my Uncle Terrence Edmondson, reknowned ultra runner in the 80s he advocates 3x20miles...................................per day in build up to a 6day event. In fact, I believe his highest week was 479miles. SICK!!!

                    "I've been following Eddy's improvement over the last two years on this site, and it's been pretty dang solid. Sure the weekly mileage has been up and down, but over the long haul he's getting out the door and has turned himself into quite a runner. He's only now just figuring out his potential. Consistency in running is measured in years, not weeks. And over the last couple of years, Eddy's made great strides" Jeff 14 Jan 2009

                      So I'm running my first marathon on Nov. 8th. I wasn't actually planning on doing this and sort of fell into it so I'm not following a very structured schedule. Since Aug. 9th I have done three long runs (two 19's and a 21). My last 19 was this past weekend and I did it at a 9:30 pace which is just a little slower than my marathon pace I would expect. I'm not sure where to go from here. I'm just wondering if I should be doing any more long runs or if I should back off. I ask because I ran my normal 8.5 last night and my legs felt totally dead. I know that a taper will help but I'm still a few weeks away from that. Any advice on how to finish this last stretch before the marathon?

                      I can't remember how I came across this thread back again but I think someone linked it in some other thread...  Anywho...I couldn't even remember we went at it quite some time about long run for marathon preparation--does it have to be >20-mile or it doesn't matter.  I couldn't even remember that I went at it over and over and over...and I guess Mikey wrote an essay that he's not so well-known for doing! ;o)  But it sort of dawned on me that some people like myself, Mikey, Spaniel or Jeff always seem to chip in as if we were always right (maybe it's just me...???) and we get some argument...many would just go out and do what they'd been doing anyways.  But one thing I always felt is that we--the contributors--don't get much feedback at all.  I guess the bottom line question is; were we right?  In my own term, I always felt that (1) far too many people run too much to prepare for a marathon; and (2) far too many people run their intervals way too fast.  I think I always pressed these points, some people ignore anyway; a few might have actually taken up and followed that suggestion...so what happened?  

                       

                      So I thought this may be a good place to start.  Runningwild; I see you went ahead and did a several >20-milers to prepare for your first marathon (2008) and ran 3:53.  That's pretty good--quite respectable time.  So congratulations!  It seems that you took some time off, not run much at all...then a few years later you came back again and ran Flying Pig marathon, having completed a few >20 including 23-miles (4+ hour run) and you did 4:00.  Marathon is one of those events that the course and weather condition make a big difference in actual race time.  How was it?  Or, better yet, how were those two marathons?  If you were to do another one, anything you would change in preparation?  Or a couple of >20-milers were just right for your preparation?  Were you actually "fresh" during the marathon?  Or anybody else with your own experience?  It's easy for me to throw some examples; one woman was stuck at 3:40 doing 3-4 X 20-milers and I cut it back and now she does ONE 18-miler and, within 5 months, she ran 3:30, then 3:29, then 3:24.  So, yeah, I don't think it's necessary.  But how about YOUR experience?  Anything we all can learn from???

                        PS: Actually when this lady ran 3:24, she was following Running Wizard (she was one of the early days guinea pigs!) so she didn't even run 3-hours; 2:45 was the longest so it was more like 16-miler and that was it.

                          I didn't read through this whole thread -- not enough paragraph delineation-- but I don't really recall seeing any extended discussion of time vs. mileage, modulo Nobby's last post.  I've always considered a long run to be anything over 2 hours, regardless of pace, as long as it is nonstop running of course.  So naturally, I like what McMillan has to say about long runs, with two types, each having a different purpose: http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/articlePages/article/2. 

                           

                          Namely, usually the long run is 2-3 hours, at conversational/ultramarathon pace, while saving marathon pace/negative split long runs for the sharpening phase -- basically the timeframe of training for the original poster's original post.

                           

                          In particular, "While I recommend a two-hour long, steady run virtually year round for most runners, you should not start the fast finish long runs until 8-10 weeks before the marathon. Too many of these workouts and you will peak too soon and be flat by marathon day. And, you only need 3-5 of these long runs before the marathon...To sum up, the marathon long run doesn't have to be a mystery. Just alternate a weekly 2-3 hour long, steady run with a fast finish long run during the 8-10 weeks before your marathon and you will be amazed at how your body adapts."

                           

                          I'm curious what the experts think.

                          2013 H1:  7 hours/week base.  Q3: Train for goal race.  Q4:  Goal Race.

                            I didn't read through this whole thread -- not enough paragraph delineation-- but I don't really recall seeing any extended discussion of time vs. mileage, modulo Nobby's last post.  I've always considered a long run to be anything over 2 hours, regardless of pace, as long as it is nonstop running of course.  So naturally, I like what McMillan has to say about long runs, with two types, each having a different purpose: http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/articlePages/article/2. 

                             

                            Namely, usually the long run is 2-3 hours, at conversational/ultramarathon pace, while saving marathon pace/negative split long runs for the sharpening phase -- basically the timeframe of training for the original poster's original post.

                             

                            In particular, "While I recommend a two-hour long, steady run virtually year round for most runners, you should not start the fast finish long runs until 8-10 weeks before the marathon. Too many of these workouts and you will peak too soon and be flat by marathon day. And, you only need 3-5 of these long runs before the marathon...To sum up, the marathon long run doesn't have to be a mystery. Just alternate a weekly 2-3 hour long, steady run with a fast finish long run during the 8-10 weeks before your marathon and you will be amazed at how your body adapts."

                             

                            I'm curious what the experts think.

                            Seilerts:

                             

                            When I was more serious about running/competing, and I was focusing on 5000m, I was running 18-22 miles every weekend.  That's about 2:00-2:30 in duration.  I hopped in a marathon and ran my first one in >3HR no problem (well, not quite NO problem but...).  I see 2-hours (and again, there's no magic to 2-hours but...) as a border line to a true fitness.  Once I get there, I can reel 2-hour run week in and week out and feel very strong.  Go too far beyond that, I seem to drain.  I've done my share of approaching 3-hour runs.  In fact, my first marathon came during the crazy build-up weeks; I ran 3-hours on Sunday, 2:30 on Tuesday, 2:45 on Thursday and following Sunday was my first marathon.  I ran two fifty something... ;o)  Actually, I know exactly; 2:59:47.  Not too bad.  All for a 5000m build-up.  One of the challenges with Running Wizard program is that it is designed first to get you up to at least close to 2-hour range for your long run even if you're training for 5k.  Our goal was to get you up to 2-hour range and keep you there for quite some time.  We believe that's how we build fitness...safely and effectively.  

                             

                            Digressed a bit but most people who are TRAINING FOR A MARATHON don't even do that.  They start out maybe an hour's run if they're lucky and 10-weeks later, they want to run a marathon.  Natural progression is; they'd draw a line from where they are today and when they want to run a marathon, however many weeks they might have, and see; "Okay, how many 20-milers, or >20, do I need to do during this period...?"  Somehow if you can manage a 16-minutes 5k already on 1-hour long run, then you may be able to run those 20-milers in 2:30 or so and squeezing 2 or 3 of them may not be that big of a deal.  But if you are 23-minute 5k runner, 20-mile would probably take more like 3.5 hours and that's a hell of a jump from 1-hour long run.  

                             

                            In a way, the OP here sort of typifies a lot of people who "train" for a marathon today.  He did his homework of running several >20-milers and did his dues in perhaps 10 or so weeks prior to his 2 marathons.  But in between, he's lucky to run maybe a couple of times a week, 3-6 miles.  All I'm saying is that, for people like that, which I believe represent majority, it would be safer, and perhaps more effective, to train on time-basis and cap it somewhere around 3-hours.  Back in the 1970s and 80s, there were tons of runners like me; ran 5k in 15, 16, 17 minutes; ran 2-hours every weekend at 7-minute pace...  Breaking 3-hours was a goal.  They may run 12-miles, maybe 15 for their long runs.  So some wise guy came along and said; "If you want to run a marathon, you may want to have at least three 20-milers under your belt..."  Makes sense.  Today, most people are 25-28 minutes 5k type of people; do their long run at 10-minute per mile pace; run a couple of times a week, up to an hour...  But somehow, 3 X 20-miler survived; and some not-so-wise guys decided, if 3 is required, 4 should be better!!  Well!!  (this is kind of interesting.  Maybe I'll write a story for Lydiard Foundation blog...! ;o))

                              Not to be a bit sidetracked or anything.. but.. Nobby, you would suggest a 2 hour run for those of us running 5ks. Just making sure I've got this right. I only ask b/c my current program only outlines workouts (intervals and tempo runs) with the remainder of the week at "easy".

                              Dont call it a comeback

                                Sorry. I had to go back and add paragraphs to my "essay."  It was bothering me.

                                Runners run.