Gun time vs. Chip time (Read 473 times)

    <Tosses hands in the air> I always thought the winner of a race was first across the finish line. ...

     

    Next time, get behind that guy and pace / draft off him, then outkick him to the finish. Wink  Maybe hanging behind you and drafting was *his* race strategy, and he didn't quite get the kick he needed to pass at the finish. Or maybe he didn't know you were in the same age group. Race strategy can sometimes backfire.

     

    I understand what you're saying.

     

    I agree that the first person across the line is the winner - and there's only one per race. My understanding is that AG stuff didn't become popular until after they there were more accurate ways of timing. Early races only recorded the winner's time because that was all that mattered, and even that was only needed for race records or whatever.

     

    And slower people toward the back of the pack for the megathons are actually running a longer race based on gun time. I'm not sure how long some of those start packs are, but the pictures look like a really long pack. (no way would you find this small-town Alaskan in a crowd like that)

    "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog


    Muddling through

       

      Fine.  Then don't give anyone a hard time for making sure they line up in the very front.  Obviously your position in regards to the starting gun has a huge impact on your time.

      In a chip timed race it has no impact on your time because chip time is valid for qualifying time purposes and tracking PBs, but it could have a big impact on your place.

      2014 Goals: Run first trail ultra, first 100K, and see what I can do in a 24-Hour race

      jmctav23


      2/3rds training

         

        Fine.  Then don't give anyone a hard time for making sure they line up in the very front.  Obviously your position in regards to the starting gun has a huge impact on your time.

         

        You obviously have a hard time distinguishing between finish order/awards and race time.  If all you care about is time (which seems to be the case) push the start button on your watch when you cross the start/finish line and line up wherever the heck you want.  Think you can cross the line first? then make it happen, line up near the front if you belong there.

         

        I'm eying up a small race in two weeks that is split into 7.5 and 15 mile distances, most of the faster folks go for the 15, but I'm going for the 7.5.  Based on the results from the past few years, it looks like I could have a chance to win/come in top 5 so yeah I will be lining up near the front.  If all I cared about was TIME, I could go rail off 7.5 miles tomorrow on a nice flat rail trail and pat myself on the back.


        Muddling through

            

          I agree that the first person across the line is the winner - and there's only one per race. My understanding is that AG stuff didn't become popular until after they there were more accurate ways of timing. Early races only recorded the winner's time because that was all that mattered, and even that was only needed for race records or whatever.

           

          I double checked my race log and I have AG results as far back as 1970. Everyone's time and place were recorded. AG stuff started becoming popular when top masters athletes wanted some recognition for their effort even though they were no longer competitive with open runners. Boston finally got on the band wagon in 1977 with separate BQs for masters runners.

          2014 Goals: Run first trail ultra, first 100K, and see what I can do in a 24-Hour race

            This thread might be my favorite rendition of this particular comet topic.

             

            Hey, I'm doin my part.

             

            BTW folks, Boston awards AG placings based on chip, not gun time. Someone had better ring them and straighten this out.

              I always thought the winner of a race was first across the finish line.

               

              +2


              Muddling through

                 

                Hey, I'm doin my part.

                 

                BTW folks, Boston awards AG placings based on chip, not gun time. Someone had better ring them and straighten this out.

                That's the choice of the RD. USATF rules allow that. Most of the races I run use actual order of finish which implies using gun time..

                2014 Goals: Run first trail ultra, first 100K, and see what I can do in a 24-Hour race

                  I double checked my race log and I have AG results as far back as 1970. Everyone's time and place were recorded. AG stuff started becoming popular when top masters athletes wanted some recognition for their effort even though they were no longer competitive with open runners. Boston finally got on the band wagon in 1977 with separate BQs for masters runners.

                   

                  Sorry, it was the newspapers listings, and it may have been in the 60s or earlier. Here's the excerpt from e-book "Slow Joe: Joe Henderson and his LSD" (Rich Englehart was the write/interviewer, end of section 9).

                   

                  "In my early running days, the newspapers routinely listed only the first-place finisher's time. That's because everyone else usually went untimed, because winning in the old-fashioned sense only meant leading in head-to-head competition. The only reason the winner was timed was to compare that mark with the records- meet, conference, national, and so on.

                   

                  "If asked to name the greatest advances in the sport since the 1960s, I'd place the digital wristwatch high on that list. It let every runner measure his or her success against an objective standard. Winning now meant beating a personal record, not a person. Only one runner could finish first, but all had at least a chance to win by their own measure."

                   

                  I'm not sure when the AG stuff started (70s with the jogging revolution or was it earlier?), but as you mention, it does seem to be a way to give recognition to older runners who are no longer competitive with the open field. I recognize they do have masters' competitions at the national level, which probably reduces some of these challenges of races within races and you're not sure with whom you're competing - and reduces the probability of pacing off someone much younger (parallel to women in mixed races).

                   

                  JMHO, but I think racing for place makes sense if you know who your competition is for any race strategy (as in masters' competition). But in a general megathon, I'd probably go with who finished in the fastest time (chip). Or have those that are likely to overall or AG place start in first wave - age groupers just behind the overall elites or subelites. That minimizes effect of starting place and head-to-head makes sense. I think I've seen at least one race do that, but don't remember which. (not up here, since we don't have that many people in most races)

                   

                  Yes, I do recognize the value of head-to-head competition, and occasionally, there's enough people in some of my races, that there is somebody near me I can race, but usually 10-20 yr younger. (gotta go with what I got)

                   

                  But I do think the person who starts 2 waves back, just because of honesty in past times, who has a stellar race (lots of training in between) should be entitled to placement based on chip time.

                   

                  As I said in my first post, the problem is easy to solve by doing small races.

                  "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
                  Ittakes2freestyl


                    I appreciate all the feedback.  I did not say I would move the the front of the pack.  I'm not that fast....yet.  I did finish 3rd in my age group (40-44) and 60th overall.  I will move closer to the front as I was about tripping over people and went to the outside and sprinted by about 30 people.  I am learning which is why I posted up on here.  Thought I did pretty damn good for my 1st competitve race.  My goal has been the Publix Half Marathon in Atlanta coming up in March.  I thought this short run would give me an idea what to expect.  Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

                      OMG. I can't believe I raced for nearly 20 years without chips or Garmins. All of my results are WRONG!

                      Scout7


                      CPT Curmudgeon

                        OMG. I can't believe I raced for nearly 20 years without chips or Garmins. All of my results are WRONG!

                         

                        Duh.


                        just a simple cat

                           

                           

                            I think they should put your age on your right calf as they give you your timing chip.  That way, you'll be able to see if you're competing against other runners nearby or if they're older or younger..


                            Oh wait, they do that in triathlon.

                            2014 Goals:

                            #1: Do what I can do. <DOING>

                            #2: 365 Hours training

                             


                            Right on Hereford...

                              The mountain bikers have this argument about the leadville 100 mile race every year because it's a mass start and awarded by gun time but there are over a 1000 riders and the back 2/3rds get bottlenecked on the first climb and they seed newcomers near the back so it's basically impossible to show first year and place well, no matter how good a shape the rider is in.

                               

                              Hmm, that seems unlikely to be true.

                               

                              I am the race timer for Leadville, and I looked at the chip start times. Everyone crossed the start mat in less than 3 minutes, except for two stragglers who were late. It's six miles to the first climb, so if you start near the back and are fit enough to place in your age group, you should be passing a lot of people early. Even if you are held up a bit on that first climb, it's energy you can use later in the race.

                               

                              If you look at the Age Group awards, even in the most competitive categories (Male 40-49, for example), there are many minutes between the top finishers. First place through third place spans over 17 minutes in M40-49, and 4th place was nearly 6 minutes after 3rd. It is a 100 mile race, after all.

                               

                              By the way, we use chip time at Leadville to determine who gets a buckle, so there's that.

                                Why? So I can have one more annoying memento from the race? Or so I can know how old the 10k pack of shoulder-to-shoulder runners / walkers is when I have to weave around them.

                                 

                                I think they should put your age on your right calf as they give you your timing chip. 

                                Dont call it a comeback