2020 Marathon Training Thread (Read 564 times)

    No NZ is nothing like Australia  but yes you cant come sorry.

    50+ PBs5k 18:29 Tauranga Parkrun May18   

    5k 18.29 Christchurch Parkrun July 20

    10k 38.55 oct 19 strava run

    Next race Mount Maunganui half 10k 31st Aug 2020

    " If you don't use it you lose it but if you use it, it wears out.

    Somewhere in between is about right "      

     

    Running Problem


    Curmudgeon

      No NZ is nothing like Australia  but yes you cant come sorry.

       

      oh thank goodness.

      2020 Goal: Figure out the problem.

      Magrawlas


         

        I'm really glad they were able to go ahead with a rescheduled date.  A lot of races (like Dunedin Marathon) cancelled very early on in the piece but (assuming the situation remains as it is) actually would've been able to go ahead as planned.

         

        I've spent enough time in Wellington to know that course is beautiful running on a good day, but could be hard work on a windy day (especially if you cop the northerly on the way back).  Fingers crossed for good weather!

         

        Yeah , it's a shame they cancelled. I wonder if it had anything to do with securing sponsorship and the like. I found it quite demotivating seeing events get cancelled on the calendar then wellington had a postponed status and your left wondering what's the point.

        Was great news when it was confirmed, like Rotovegas for you I'm sure.

        Last big week of training for me. 70km week with long run of 32k then start tapering. The weather has been fantastic here the last couple of weeks! Can't last and those infamous Wellington northerlies will ramp up as spring approaches...

        darkwave


        Mother of Cats

           

          Yeah , it's a shame they cancelled. I wonder if it had anything to do with securing sponsorship and the like. I found it quite demotivating seeing events get cancelled on the calendar then wellington had a postponed status and your left wondering what's the point.

          Was great news when it was confirmed, like Rotovegas for you I'm sure.

          Last big week of training for me. 70km week with long run of 32k then start tapering. The weather has been fantastic here the last couple of weeks! Can't last and those infamous Wellington northerlies will ramp up as spring approaches...

           

          Hope the long run goes well and enjoy the taper!

           

          ***

           

          My week was continued rebuilding, focusing on using both legs equally.

           

          53 miles, 1500 yards of swimming, 15 "miles" of pool-running.
          M: 5.5 "miles" of pool-running and upper body weights/core.
          T: 10 miles, including 6 gentle Iwo Jima hill repeats (about 2:20 up, 90 second easy jog, 30 second gentle stride, and 80 second jog to bottom of hill). Followed with leg strengthwork and streaming yoga.
          W: 4.5 miles easy (9:46), streaming yoga, and 7.5 miles aerobic (9:06) plus drills and four gentle hill strides
          Th: upper body weights/core and 5.5 "miles" of pool-running in the morning; streaming yoga in afternoon.
          F: 10 miles easy (9:12) followed by drills, strides, and streaming yoga.
          Sa: 12 miles, including 4x.5 miles fairly hard with 0.25 mile jog - splits were 3:21, 3;26, 3;20, 3:17, with 2:30-2:40 recovery between each. Followed with full recovery, and then 6x30 seconds hard, 30 seconds easy. 1500 yards swimming after.
          Su: 8.5 easy (9:38), followed by drills, then streaming yoga and 4 "miles" of pool-running.

          Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

           

          And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

          jhudak55


            DW: Nice week!

             

            Magrawlas: Hope everything goes well with the taper.

             

            Piwi: Have you used the NB Fuelcell Rebel for anything longer? They feel really good all around. I was thinking they'd be good for a half and possibly up to a full.

             

            65.1 miles

            M: 3.1 miles easy (9:03)

            T: 7.4 miles with 3 mile tempo (6:38, 6:36, 6:36)

            W: 10.5 miles easy (8:07)

            T: 10 miles easy (8:37)

            F: 10.1 miles easy (8:52)

            S: 10 miles easy (8:51)

            S: 14 miles long (8:07)

              Magrawlas: Fingers crossed the weather stays nice for your race.

               

              DW: Solid rebuilding week. Based on Saturday's run things must be feeling pretty good.

               

              jhudak: Solid mileage and nice tempo run.

               

              Another week of heat and humidity around here. Early in the week it looked like Friday morning would be pretty good with a dew point of only 60 F, so I planned to do a workout then, but as the week progressed the forecast got worse. Ended up with a DP around 66. I had planned 4 x 1600m but only got through 2 and downgraded the remainder to 800m reps. Overall I'm pretty happy with it considering the conditions. Today's long run was brutal; think I lost close to 10 lbs during it.

               

              Some positive news: Bucks County marathon sent out a notice that they are fully approved to proceed on Nov. 8. That one is at the bottom of my list but if the others are cancelled I will happily run it.

               

              Date Name   Distance   Pace   Gain
              Tue Morning Run   10.11   8:19   633
              Wed Morning Run   10.05   8:08   630
              Thu Morning Run   8.05   8:12   518
              Fri Warm up   2.64   7:44   0
              Fri 2 x 1600m + 4 x 800m (5:43, 5:47, 2:54, 2:53, 2:55, 2:54   5.37   6:32   0
              Fri Cool down   3.32   8:47   10
              Sat Trails in Sega Park   10.52   8:59   751
              Sun Long run   20.02   8:11   1014

              Total distance: 70.08 mi

              2:52:16 (2018)

              Marky_Mark_17


                 

                Yeah , it's a shame they cancelled. I wonder if it had anything to do with securing sponsorship and the like. I found it quite demotivating seeing events get cancelled on the calendar then wellington had a postponed status and your left wondering what's the point.

                Was great news when it was confirmed, like Rotovegas for you I'm sure.

                Last big week of training for me. 70km week with long run of 32k then start tapering. The weather has been fantastic here the last couple of weeks! Can't last and those infamous Wellington northerlies will ramp up as spring approaches...

                 

                With most road races, the organisers have to sink a bit of money up front to get traffic management sorted and venues booked (this is the main reason Auckland Marathon is so stupidly expensive these days - traffic management on SH1 and the Harbour Bridge is not cheap!!).  I guess they decided it wasn't worth spending that up front when they weren't sure they'd even be able to hold an event.

                5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20) | 10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) 

                HM: 1:10:46 (Nov-19) | FM: 2:57:36 (Oct-17)

                Last race: NZ 10,000m Champs, 21 March, 32:34 (PB) 

                Up next: Mt. Maunganui Half Marathon, 29 Aug; Rotorua Marathon, 26 Sept

                "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                JMac11


                Taper Czar

                  Question for the group, and this is probably for cal and DW the most given how slowly they run their easy pace: is there ever an easy pace where you say "this is just too slow?" I'm not talking about a recovery run the day after a Quality day. Those, I'm not sure there really is such a thing as too slow. However, I'm in base building right now, and my easy runs are starting to get to be 2:30+ behind marathon pace. Normally I wouldn't think much about this, but during a base period it seemed to be getting too slow. I know on these forums we are usually in the camp that easy pace can't be too slow, but clearly it can: if I did my easy runs at a 13:00 pace, that would be too slow. I've always been careful not to be too fast on my easy runs, so I've focused on that so much that I don't know the other bound.

                   

                  I plan on adding some tempo runs next week as I think this may be a cause of my easy pace getting too slow, but curious on other thoughts.

                  5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                   

                  Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 

                  cinnamon girl


                    You got the miles in and a long run JT with some faster running. I'd call it a win!

                     

                    M: 2 mi easy, 11 x 1 min on/off, 2 mi easy  88 deg  (meant 10 but lost count)
                    T: 7 mi (8:16) 90 deg +windy
                    W: 7 mi (8:15) 95 deg +windy
                    T: 7.3 mi (8:17) 100 deg +windy
                    F: off - screw this, left town after work to escape the inferno
                    S: 20 min (7:44), 2 x 1200 (4:28, 4:26), 2 x 400 (1:26, 1:23), 2 x 800 (2:59, 2:55) with 2 min rec, nap, 10 mi (8:15)
                    S: 15 mi (8:15)

                     

                    Aren't you running in heat and humidity right now JMac?

                    Running Problem


                    Curmudgeon

                      Question for the group, and this is probably for cal and DW the most given how slowly they run their easy pace: is there ever an easy pace where you say "this is just too slow?" I'm not talking about a recovery run the day after a Quality day. Those, I'm not sure there really is such a thing as too slow. However, I'm in base building right now, and my easy runs are starting to get to be 2:30+ behind marathon pace. Normally I wouldn't think much about this, but during a base period it seemed to be getting too slow. I know on these forums we are usually in the camp that easy pace can't be too slow, but clearly it can: if I did my easy runs at a 13:00 pace, that would be too slow. I've always been careful not to be too fast on my easy runs, so I've focused on that so much that I don't know the other bound.

                       

                      I plan on adding some tempo runs next week as I think this may be a cause of my easy pace getting too slow, but curious on other thoughts.

                       

                      I have a lower limit myself. I also sometimes use heart rate. Isn’t it crazy hot and humid where you’re at right now so anything is magnified by 13 plus lack of sleep? If you slow down to 9:00/mi pace you’re going to really limit your long runs if you still need that 90 minute rule. Is slowing down feeling easy? Are you able to hold a conversation out loud at the pace? Why are they slowing down so much and how does it compare to last year? 

                       

                       

                      my week:

                      5 runs up/down a hill about 3 miles long and 440 ft high. 
                      one 2:00:00 long run that was a little over 14 miles

                       

                      49.x miles. I think about 6 hours of running.

                      oh and I bought new Nike Outlet Store Pegasus 34s. Same show I have been running in. MAN are new shoes TIGHT.

                      2020 Goal: Figure out the problem.

                      JMac11


                      Taper Czar

                        Regarding heat, yes, that is definitely slowing me down. But that usually gets me into the +2:00 range for easy runs, not 2:30+. This is way slower than I ran any of the past summers. So that can't explain all of it and why I'm wondering whether it's too much.

                        5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                         

                        Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 

                        CalBears


                          Question for the group, and this is probably for cal and DW the most given how slowly they run their easy pace: is there ever an easy pace where you say "this is just too slow?" I'm not talking about a recovery run the day after a Quality day. Those, I'm not sure there really is such a thing as too slow. However, I'm in base building right now, and my easy runs are starting to get to be 2:30+ behind marathon pace. Normally I wouldn't think much about this, but during a base period it seemed to be getting too slow. I know on these forums we are usually in the camp that easy pace can't be too slow, but clearly it can: if I did my easy runs at a 13:00 pace, that would be too slow. I've always been careful not to be too fast on my easy runs, so I've focused on that so much that I don't know the other bound.

                           

                          I plan on adding some tempo runs next week as I think this may be a cause of my easy pace getting too slow, but curious on other thoughts.

                           

                          I think it's very very individual and, honestly, I never asked myself a question - when slow is actually too slow. I have HR data for this kind of stuff - if I ran at my recover HR, whatever pace is -that's the pace. When I was doing high mileage weeks, my pace was sometimes more than 3 minutes slower than my MP. Is it too slow? I have no clue, but it's at a recovery HR.. I would say, my recovery pace is approximately at least two minutes slower than MP, but if it's 80 oF and humid, I don't think I would consider MP+3 as too slow for me. But again - our age is way too different - I am actually pretty happy I can run and I don't have any injuries (knock 3 times on the wood).

                           

                          I also looked at my historical running data (wanted to know how fast/slow I was running 200s, 400s and 1T few years back) and I think I noticed that after few weeks running faster workouts my easy pace became faster. So, maybe you can think about doing 8-10 strides 3 times a week? Might be worth a try... That's all I can think of.

                          paces PRs - 5K - 5:55  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                          Running Problem


                          Curmudgeon

                            JMac could it be age or less sleep? Could you be sick or just fatigued last week or this week any more than usual? If you’re just base building, and doing 50 miles a week since July with heat and humidity and zero races other than the one time trial you had to push through it could just be a slight loss in competitive edge, or fatigue and some loss of overall fitness after cutting back a lot this year.

                            2020 Goal: Figure out the problem.

                            darkwave


                            Mother of Cats

                              So...

                               

                              As an absolute, without context statement....no, I don't think 2:30 slower than marathon pace is too slow for an easy run on its face.

                               

                              I do think that there is context here.  What are you defining as "marathon pace?  Your PR pace?  Your future goal pace?  Or the pace you could hold in today's weather conditions and fitness? - those are often three different things.

                               

                              For example - yesterday I did an easy 8.5 at around 9:40 pace - nearly three minutes slower than my current marathon PR pace of 6:47.  But...I can also tell you that my current marathon pace in yesterday's weather and my current fitness would honestly be closer to 7:40 ish.  If you look at it that way, there was only about a 2 minute gap.

                               

                              Writing more generally - I think that the best easy pace for a runner is the pace/effort at which you're optimizing the balance between the fitness gains of the run and your need for recovery.  Those fitness gains only increase slightly as you speed up the easy runs, while the recovery needs of the run increase more steeply with speed for most (especially as you age).  Thus, from a cost-benefit perspective, for most of us it's better to keep those easy runs slower.

                               

                              As for when is too slow?  In the short term, it's when your gait is falling apart (though I'd also note that running slowly with good form is a very good running drill).  In the longer term, it's if you feel worse in your workouts after a slower easy run.

                               

                              FWIW, I was stuck at a plateau of around a 3:10 marathon, 87-88 half, mid-to-low 19s 5K for several years.  At that time I also did my "easy runs" anywhere between 7:50-8:20 pace.

                               

                              I started following a fast friend on Garmin Connect a few years ago- a guy that consistently runs 2:27-2:28 for the marathon.  So...5:37-5:38 pace.  I was surprised to see he did most of his easy runs around 8 minute pace - sometimes a bit slower.

                               

                              And I thought...."if a sub-2:30 marathoner is doing his runs at 8:00 pace, I should probably be a bit slower than that"  So...I experimented with slowing down my easy runs to where they are now.  And I started to feel fresher and to absorb my workouts better.  And the PRs started to roll in.

                               

                              Of course, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data."

                              Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                               

                              And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                              JMac11


                              Taper Czar

                                Your last line is the most important, but still, thank you for that long write up DW. Overall as I've stated, I'm in the camp of "people run their easy runs too fast," so this isn't diverting too much from that. I used to have a MP of 7:10 and did my easy runs at 7:45.

                                 

                                The problem with the slow gait thing is I could easily run like 9:30 with a good gait. I've run with my wife before at that pace and had no problem. So I can't see that working for me.

                                 

                                Regarding what the 2:30+ measures, I'd say "current fitness in good race conditions", so figure something in the 6:10ish range as I've lost a bit of fitness this year and am not in PR form.

                                 

                                Cal's point about faster workouts is exactly what I've noticed too: the more workouts I do, the faster my easy pace is. I remember when I was doing those Daniels mixed threshold/easy pace runs, I had a hard time keeping my easy pace north of 7:00 during the easy portion. It's like swinging a baseball bat with a doughnut on: you're going to swing the bat harder once you take it off. That's why I think I need to add tempo runs in here and there in this base period.

                                 

                                Overall, I'm not too concerned, but I do think there can be something to your easy pace being too slow when you're just base building. One of the mantras we have here is that you want to keep your easy pace easy so that you can a) recover from hard runs and b) be ready for your next hard run. With no hard runs during base building, does that hold anymore? I'm not saying I'm going to go out there and run MP+1:00 in the heat and humidity. However, I think my broader question/point was whether ONLY running slowly actually makes you run more slowly. I tried to pick it up to threshold for one mile in a run last week and felt like I was SPRINTING and yet ended up at T+30 seconds.

                                 

                                Finally RP - no, not age or lack of sleep. All of these issues have existed for about 2 months now, and given I just ran CIM for a PR, it can't be age. It just feels like with 0 workouts in 8 weeks, I am getting slower and slower. I was thinking it would be the opposite (if you're not running hard, shouldn't your easy runs feel a lot easier and therefore faster?)

                                5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                                 

                                Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run