Forums >Running 101>Junk miles
RIP Milkman
Junk miles: doing a specific workout inappropriately, therefore wasting the benefit of the workout AND perhaps biffing you for other workouts. Examples including doing speedwork too fast or too slow or with way-too-long recovery times between intervals.
Forgot to add this, +1
The best example of junk miles in my mind are people running easy runs too fast.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
Are we there, yet?
I would have said going out to run x more miles because the plan said to even though your body said you should have stopped a few miles earlier.
2024 Races:
03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles
05/11 - D3 50K 05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour
06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.
What rlopez said.
I think of it like this ...
What's important about a run or a workout--or even a volume of mileage--is not how much you can handle, it's how much you can recover from.
The point of a run or workout is to create a recovery period. You have to incrementally build up your capacity to recover.
At a certain point, you have gotten all of the training stimulus that you possibly can out of a workout or bunch of workouts and doing any more would just be bludgeoning yourself for no reason, prolonging your recovery, and actually producing net negative fitness.
Anything above that tipping point = junk.
Runners run
This is a great way to look at it. Thanks.
....is not how much you can handle, it's how much you can recover from.
Yeah, that makes sense out of the senseless. Performance and improvement really is about recovery and not tearing down. Kind of like the effective part of intervals isn't the run, it's how short the interval is. (for those that don't know, the "interval" is the rest interval, not the running part)
It's funny how a descriptive word can elicit such emotional responses. If the same exact runs were called Maintenance Miles or Easy Miles people wouldn't care. But call them Junk or Garbage, and oh boy!
60-64 age group - University of Oregon alumni - Irreverent and Annoying
Yeah, that makes sense out of the senseless. Performance and improvement really is about recovery and not tearing down. Kind of like the effective part of intervals isn't the run, it's how short the interval is. (for those that don't know, the "interval" is the rest interval, not the running part) It's funny how a descriptive word can elicit such emotional responses. If the same exact runs were called Maintenance Miles or Easy Miles people wouldn't care. But call them Junk or Garbage, and oh boy!
youre right! i saw the word and i got all upset!! im doing it ALL wrong!
Thanks for all the responses. it all makes sense, especially the recovery part. I'm thinking, as long as youre recovering at the same rate or faster.
Yes, so in conclusion, what some people call junk miles are the miles run on days that are not a hard workout day.
(A lot of people only have two real "workout" runs a week: a speedy day, and a long run day. A few have three "workout" days)
The other 4-5 running days can have names like "recovery" or "easy"; or...junk, garbage, trash or some local slang term.
Regardless of the vocabulary, the result is the same.
Mmmm Bop
The first time I heard about junk miles was years ago in the old RW forums when there’d be threads about the FIRST/ Run Less Run Faster plan/book. The why bother with easy runs when you can go for a swim or a bike ride instead and save your legs? With a snappy title like that, you’ll always get gullible people buying into it.
I agree that recovery is key and a lot of folk tend to run their easy runs too fast and then claim that they can’t increase mileage because they’ll get injured. Keeping the easy/recovery runs at a true pace means that you can safely build mileage AND still be fresh for the harder workouts which will ultimately lead to faster race times. My highest mileage training cycle was 89mpw average over 16 weeks and some runs were at 2/3min slower than MP. It really isn't that difficult if you’ve got the time and enthusiasm! But, a lot of folk just don’t like the idea of running “slow”.
The 5000m/10000m elite guys will run 120/130+mpw and I’m sure none of them would label any of their runs as junk miles!
5k - 17:53 (4/19) 10k - 37:53 (11/18) Half - 1:23:18 (4/19) Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)
I agree that recovery is key and a lot of folk tend to run their easy runs too fast and then claim that they can’t increase mileage because they’ll get injured. Keeping the easy/recovery runs at a true pace means that you can safely build mileage AND still be fresh for the harder workouts which will ultimately lead to faster race times.
I'm too impatient and have little to no self control, so I run my easy days too fast. Often my long run days end with a last half fast pace because I just want to get the run over with. What I've arrived at is easy days being fewer miles than workout days because I already know I'm not going to run slow. I don't race much, and not really training with any particular goal in mind, so I don't feel like I'm short-changing myself.
Sadly, I can no longer say I haven't run a race in 25 years. I did a 50k in Feb and a 12hr in July. I totally ruined my streak and will not likely ever surpass it because I probably won't be alive in 25 years.
#RunEveryDay
If that's what makes you happy, Bill, then keep going. I think it's easy to get caught up in the technical details. If you are happy with the way you train and you aren't worried about a goal, just keep going!
Half Fanatic #9292.
Game Admin for RA Running Game 2023.
The point of a run or workout is to create a recovery period.
Agree. Also, speaking from experience, running through burnout, injury, or illness just to obtain some arbitrary number of miles in a week/year or to maintain a streak is, in my opinion, the junkiest of miles.
I'm too impatient and have little to no self control, so I run my easy days too fast. Often my long run days end with a last half fast pace because I just want to get the run over with. What I've arrived at is easy days being fewer miles than workout days because I already know I'm not going to run slow. I don't race much, and not really training with any particular goal in mind, so I don't feel like I'm short-changing myself. Sadly, I can no longer say I haven't run a race in 25 years. I did a 50k in Feb and a 12hr in July. I totally ruined my streak and will not likely ever surpass it because I probably won't be alive in 25 years.
I agree with Canada in that you should run at whatever pace you feel like/enjoy if you aren’t training for a race. Btw congrats on the 50k and 12hr....were you a middle distance runner in your younger days?
My point was directed more at the racers looking to improve their PRs. If you increase mileage each week then the easy runs will naturally get slower and that’s when some folk start to panic and think that they’re actually losing fitness! Just trust the process and you’ll get race day magic with a good taper. 👍
I agree with Canada in that you should run at whatever pace you feel like/enjoy if you aren’t training for a race. Btw congrats on the 50k and 12hr....were you a middle distance runner in your younger days? My point was directed more at the racers looking to improve their PRs. If you increase mileage each week then the easy runs will naturally get slower and that’s when some folk start to panic and think that they’re actually losing fitness! Just trust the process and you’ll get race day magic with a good taper. 👍
Yeah, I'm genetically inclined to be best at things lasting 45 seconds to 5 minutes. Ask my partner! (drum slap)
But my ongoing achilles thing keeps me from doing any fast training for fast races. And I'm really bad at distance running. So I just run for the pleasure of it. I guess I'll forget about another long no-race streak, I might do a couple a year now. Any tips on a West Coast 100M in March or April? One without a sadistic amount of hills?
MUCHO sage advice from the regulars on workouts and recovery. I always learn something new or reaffirm things I already knew or suspected. There's nothing like correlating real-world anecdotes from people who've been at it for a while. I'll try to run slower and recover more, but trying is hard.
Resident Historian
Surly Bill, you're a runner (so should be reasonably healthy) now in 55-59AG. 25 years from now puts you in 80-84AG. Pretty good chance you'll make it there and beyond* (unless there's something in your health that exercise doesn't fix).
So you could break that 25 year non-racing streak... but if a 100 miler seem like more fun... - - - - -
* Healthy people tend to underestimate their life expectancy. Ten years ago, at 60, I had to decide on a pension buy-out. A major factor was my life expectancy. I was shocked by the numbers that popped put from online calculators (which were fairly consistent). So I asked an actuary friend to evaluate the results. He confirmed them as directionally correct, said I should make it well in my 90's, but should plan for 100.
Neil
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------“Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I'm here to tell you that fast is better. I've always believed this, in spite of the trouble it's caused me. - Hunter S. Thompson
25 years from now puts you in 80-84AG. Pretty good chance you'll make it there and beyond*
Oh Gods please no.
I've seen people over 80, and don't tell them, but it looks horrible.