Forums >Racing>Competitive Jerks Racing and Training - 2023
According to FindMyMarathon.com, the CIM course is about a minute faster than the Boston course, not accounting for weather (as far as I can tell). Interestingly - average race-day temperatures are about the same, with CIM only a few degrees cooler. But (1) Boston is much more variable, so a higher likelihood of being warm, and (2) Boston of course starts much later in the day, making a warm day that much worse.
I've run both, but hard to compare because the weather was so different -- 40F at CIM start vs. nearly 60F and humid at Boston start (plus full sun later, and around 70F by the finish).
At Boston, I had a rough day. I think I had a reasonable goal and went out at the right pace for my fitness. But I started to feel overheated and fatigued already going into the hills around 16. The hills were not too awful if you're used to hills, but they're fairly big and long, nothing to sneeze at. I powered through them and slowed down a bit; I was hoping to get my strength back coming out of them at 21, and fly the rest of the way. There's a downhill at that point that initially made me feel like I had a chance to do that, but then I pretty quickly hit a wall and it was a death march the last 4-5 miles. Finished with a 4 min positive split, which wasn't as bad as a lot of folks I talked to. And turned out my death-march pace was not as slow as it felt, just because my fitness was there - my legs knew what to do but my brain was unhappy. I think on a cooler day those final miles would have felt different. Agree with RP, get to 21 ready to run.
At CIM, the rolling hills seem to cover the majority of the first half. They are annoying and you definitely feel them. But they are short and not too severe; you can still get roughly steady mile splits. I started cranking it up after the halfway point; hit 20 still feeling good, I turned on the turbo boost for the final 10k. (Get to...you know the rest.) I ended up with a ridiculous 5 minute negative split. (Granted that included >1 min stop to pee and get a rock out of my shoe, but still.) I clearly underestimated my potential, because (1) I blew up in my previous race that spring, (2) that was my first race with Vaporflys, and I didn't adjust for it, (3) I kept the "don't go out too fast" refrain in my head for too long, then ended up in a groove that was slower than it should've been.
Dave
I think I agree with RP in that the course is manageable but the CROWDS do suck. If your moving along with a group going approximately the same pace its OK try to fight the crowd and you're gonna be frustrated like I was last year. That said I signed up again for 2024 and will probably run it a few more times.
Question: If you lived within easy driving distance of CIM would you run it every year? I kinda feel like if your a marathoner and live within 50 miles of Boston people EXPECT you to run it. Jmac and others that live near NYC did you have the same feeling about the NYC marathon??
5K 18:36 (2023), 10K 39:40 (2022), 1/2 1:24:37 (2023), full 2:58:36 (2015)
The crowding was certainly bad in Boston, but I didn't feel like it was any worse than Chicago. Which maybe is not saying much.
Fortunately I don't have to worry about anything like that, because the Seattle Marathon sucks, lol. And there was a RnR Seattle that sucked equally, but now they don't even have it anymore.
I've actually had a thing going where I don't repeat ANY marathons. I've run 19 so far and the only one I've run twice was Seattle, and once was as a pacer. I've somewhat lost interest in maintaining that string; I was going to repeat Eugene this past spring, but had to miss it due to injury. (Fate??) But anyway, I only race two marathons a year, and I would hate to have one of them be locked in so I can't explore other possibilities. In that situation, I might repeat, but not every year.
Incidentally, seems like if you live ANYWHERE and run a BQ, people expect you to run Boston. I was anxious to do so with my first BQ, but don't feel the need to go back anytime soon. Even around here, 3000 miles away - people hear you BQ'd and assume you're registering, or hear you didn't register and assume you didn't run a BQ.
I live within 1 hour 20 minutes drive from Sacramento - I run CIM every year since 2012 (registered but didn't run in 2016 because didn't feel I will run fast .
CIM is still pretty unique course, in my opinion. When I think about it, every incline is matched with a decline every time up until around mile 20? - there is no case when there would be an incline, then smaller decline and then bigger decline - almost all inclines and declines are equal. There are two spans where you have sharp decline - mile 1 and around mile 11 I think - they in total have more than 200 feet of decline. And weather... Yes. I only had one bad weather day - first marathon in 2012 - torrential rain and 30-40 miles wind in some points - I still PR-ed though
Boston would be an awesome course if you have decent weather and somehow don't have those two hills Up until the first hill, Boston is way way much easier than CIM, in my opinion. And last 5 miles - if hills didn't destroy you, you would fly those last 5 miles - that's what happened to me during my first Boston where I also PR-ed.
Fishy - my pace cadence during last 5-6 marathons is 192, not 182 - if I paced at 182, i would probably run around 3:30 time
paces PRs - 5K - 5:48 / 10K - 6:05 / HM - 6:14 / FM - 6:26 per mile
Damn Cal!!! Sugarloaf was 172 my PR in 2015 was 177. Your legs must look like the road runner escaping the coyote(just dated myself
Intl. correspondent
Keen - You are in an absolute beast mode at the moment. It's a shame you're gonna waste all that fitness on a 100 miler race heh.Also scary stuff with the stomach issue, hopefully it's just a one off thing.
Fishy - You most likely are the outlier with that low cadence, I reckon 180 to 190 is where most people end up at.
But for now I would like to have an open poll: please vote who you will think wins CIM - Mikkey or CalBears? Please people - don't be shy - just express your opinion - I promise nobody will take it against you - it should be fun, so, please vote !!!
First, they will run together most of the race. Then as they approach the Del Taco parking lot, they chew some yellowish bubble gum and then they will both spit it out at the parking lot as a hommage to the lord commander Keen.
And then, as the clock nears the 3 hour mark, they both cross the finish line hand in hand, as a symbol of friendship ❤️
They then exchange their t-shirts. Mikkey has the traditional white t-shirt with little red circles in it. Cal instead, has a red t-shirt with little white circles in it.
RP is already there at the finish line, he managed to PR yet again with a time of 2h54. In the 6 minutes between his arrival and the time both Mikkey and Cal cross the finish line, he already managed to call 207 people to talk about the race, and to write the first 15 pages of his race report.
me - I'm gonna pull a page out of Chris Watson's book and write down the percentages of outcome from my race this Sunday:
1% - race day miracle and I manage to PR somehow (sub 1h22 at a time trial), contrary to what I could think from every recent workout. I might drink a Kölsh beer if that happens.
39% - Good weather and I manage to break the old PR which was run at a proper race (sub 1h23:30)
30% - The hot early pace gets me in the later stages and I fade to something like a 1h26
30% - Race day weather is crap / plantar fasciitis decides to show up and I fade badly to something like 1h29
A day off tomorrow and only 35 minutes on Saturday, then like Bruce Buffer uses to say: IIIIIIIIT'S TIIIIIIIIMMME!!!
We fly to Düsseldorf via Amsterdam this afternoon. Then tomorrow we take the train to Cologne.
It's been 4 years since I was last in Germany. I quite like it, things are generally neat, clean and well organized which makes my brain happy.
PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021
Up next: some 800m race (or time trials) / Also place in the top 20% in a trail race
Tool to generate Strava weekly
Mikkey - thank you really appreciate it! I had a blast and understand now why some people run more than one marathon in the lifetime.
Flavio - LOL I like that RP bashing Can he really PR there? Maybe I don’t see his workouts but he has been focusing on trail runs…good luck in Köln. If your brain likes that, you are neither Brazilian nor Italian….
HM: 1:47 (9/20) I FM: 3:53:11 (9/23)
2024 Goals: run a FM & HM + stay healthy!
Problem Child
I think I agree with RP in that the course is manageable but the CROWDS do suck. If your moving along with a group going approximately the same pace its OK try to fight the crowd and you're gonna be frustrated like I was last year. That said I signed up again for 2024 and will probably run it a few more times. Question: If you lived within easy driving distance of CIM would you run it every year? I kinda feel like if your a marathoner and live within 50 miles of Boston people EXPECT you to run it. Jmac and others that live near NYC did you have the same feeling about the NYC marathon??
I’m about 2 hours from the start of CIM. I haven’t run it EVERY year. It’s really easy to pick as a race over many other marathons due to logistics and cost. I’m sure if I lived near Lake Erie I’d run it a few times. JMac lives near the New York marathon but doesn’t run it every year. CIM fits my life because Tapering is Thanksgiving weekend (accustomed to this from Wrestling), training weather isn’t horrible, and it’s a drive away. Route 66 marathon? Eugene/Portland marathon? Alaska…plane tickets and multi day travel plus hotel. I can be home Sunny dinner on Sunday after running CIM. I’d probably like the crowds and Boston if I lived near Cape Cod.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
Digital calendar or paper? I believe you read a paper printed newspaper so I just want to know for general curiosity.
It looks like the bib transfer window for CIM doesn't open until October 30, so plenty of time for folks on the transfer. RP - I'll set a reminder in my calendar to get back to you in the beginning of November.
It looks like the bib transfer window for CIM doesn't open until October 30, so plenty of time for folks on the transfer.
RP - I'll set a reminder in my calendar to get back to you in the beginning of November.
RIP Milkman
I've run NYC 4 times (out of 7 total).
The three others were CIM, Grandma's, and Boston.
I do love that I can sleep in my own bed for NYC. Plus, in terms of crowds and energy, nothing tops NYC imo, which is why I keep going back. It also helps to "know" a course. You can study an elevation map a million times, but you won't truly understand how to mentally prep without having run the course. It's just like golf in that way: someone who has played a course a bunch of times is going to have an advantage, even if the other person has studied everything they can about it.
If the course was dead flat, I probably wouldn't want to run anything else. But I went to CIM and Grandma's to try to set lifetime PRs and chase that MM. I don't think that's really possible on the NYC course, although it's not as difficult as people make it out to be (unless it's 70 and humid like last year).
In terms of expecting it? Yes, everyone asks me every year "are you running NYC this year?" It's always weird to them when I say no, I'm going somewhere else.
Let's put it this way: I'm never going back to Grandma's even though I got a perfect day. I only want to go back to CIM because I am not going to get a weather day like I did last NYC.
Ugh all this talk of marathoning - I do miss it. I just wish I could wake up in the mornings like you crazy people. I'm definitely going to be running more this winter - there's nothing else to do!
RP - I do LOVE physical newspapers, but no, my calendars are digital. We do have a paper one though for my daughter's activities in our kitchen.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
Cobra Commander Keen
I'd have to live more than a 4 hour drive from Sacramento before I'd even consider not running it each year I planned on a marathon.
Flavio - Thanks! Yesterday was my biggest-ever training day. One solid hills workout and one LR are all that stand between me and a taper. There is a thought in the back of my head that maybe I should see about running a marathon in late November/early-ish December to also take advantage of my current fitness. *begins cross-referencing findmymarathon.com and delta.com*Also:
5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22
Upcoming Races:
OKC Memorial 5k - April 27
Bun Run 5k - May 4
You folks study course profiles? I thought we just glance at a snap shop then go train for some hills if there are any.
I'd have to live more than a 4 hour drive from Sacramento before I'd even consider not running it each year I planned on a marathon. Flavio - Thanks! Yesterday was my biggest-ever training day. One solid hills workout and one LR are all that stand between me and a taper. There is a thought in the back of my head that maybe I should see about running a marathon in late November/early-ish December to also take advantage of my current fitness. *begins cross-referencing findmymarathon.com and delta.com*Also:
There is one on the West coast you should look into. it’s in December. Mostly downhill.
Tucson. December 10, 2023.
Are we there, yet?
Qualifying cutoff for Boston has been announce: 5:29, the biggest in Boston history. With the conversation here I thought it interesting that CIM is one of the most popular qualifying races.https://runningmagazine.ca/sections/runs-races/the-2024-boston-marathon-cut-off-time-is-the-largest-to-date/?fbclid=IwAR0xOZEYEftY2i02d6dm1qF3eRiMEzGAYgAz6xbXrmx_-Mc9ZLkKpRIe25k_aem_AXV6fps-8WG9Z6exf9qgCGkyR68YEH4PRIsNpZVIkiSa2U7875ulj2V3c2d3a84rK74
2024 Races:
03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles
05/11 - D3 50K 05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour
06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.
DavePNW on the ‘BQ’ note I know a woman who qualified this year, signed up and bought the insurance. Essentially she’s buying herself a deferral because she will have a 2 month old in April. Instead of requalify if she’s going to (this is my guess) just hobby jog it in 2025 and absolutely die because the weather will suck. Also training will suck because training for a marathon with a 1 year old will be too hard for her due to reasons.
pretty sure I got faster when my kid was born…and broke 3 on his 2nd birthday weekend. #DadLife