Meg and I have talked about PR's and we are pretty close on times, but she is definitely faster because she was running these times at an older age. I was 38 when I ran: Marathon 2:51, Half 1:20:08, 10K 36:30 and 5K's by the score in the mid-17's. This was in the early 80's. Important to note that back then fiveK's were rare and many marathoners didn't run many of them; they were not always available and we thought they were for the people who could not run distances. Remember I was in a small town upstate NY. A sub-3 marathon requires a pace of about 6:52, and a sub-2:50 something like 6:27. When Meg mentioned her marathon pace at 6:15, and Maine's marathon pace of 7:25, she was alluding to the pace that the marathoner would try to go out in, understanding that he or she would slow. I was using their best marathon times in average m/m. I think Meg's is 2:50. She is a very fast runner. For her best finish time, I would guess she was close to 6:30's if not a couple of seconds faster. Meg? Spareribs

Yesterday's discussions were great! This leads us to a kind of new topic.... VO2max Supposedly VO2max (the maximum rate of oxygen pumping into your system) can predict race times and McMillan's calculator, for example does just that to extrapolate one race time to another ( http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/Running%20University/Article%201/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm ) Rib's example of what he ran fits perfectly and suggests a VO2max of 57 ( http://runningforfitness.org/calc/vo2.php?metres=42195&hr=2&min=50&sec=00&age=38&gender=M&Submit=Calculate ). I have read that for experienced runners you can only fine tune your VO2max. For new runners there can be a bigger improvement. If this is the case then we are each stuck in a narrow window and can only fine tune. I'm around 45-46 VO2max. I wonder how much imprvement can be expected? The VO2 max is probably related to what you were born with in terms of heart and lungs (?) I find this kind of depressing

Perch--I don't know enough about this to comment intelligently except to say my understanding was similar to yours. Like many things, there's rather quick improvement for new runners with much more limited improvement later. And, yes, genes matter. I actually posted because your link to McMillan reminded me to say that I think his "Six Step Training System" (http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/training1.htm) is just about the best thing I've ever read about training. It is detailed enough to be substantive, but brief enough to zero in on the key issues. And most important, I felt it gave me the tools I needed to devise my own plan, rather than telling me a specific plan I needed to follow. I know many of you already know this piece, but if you don't, I highly recommend it.

mainerunnah and breger1 funny you are both discussing the Goofy. My current plan is to run it in 2011. [editor: You are planning marathons two years in advance. You are ill. Twocat: And I don't like you either! ] My original goal was to do Boston in 2008 but the best laid plans . . . and then do NY in 2008 followed by Houston in 2009. But with my various injuries, I am running Boston (I still hope!) in 2009 and that has pushed Houston to 2010, which pushed the Goofy from 2010 to 2011. Anyway, my in-laws were all bummed out about this because they wanted to go to Disney in 2010 and have been griping about waiting another year! lol If you guys run it next January I hope you have a great time. Mariposai wow do they still sell cars? [editor: You know biketm can see this! Twocat: Good thing he has a great sense of humor then! (Twocat keeping his fingers crossed on this one!)] More seriously Mariposai what are you looking at? I love cars so buying one is among my favorite topics. Twocat off for a 6 mile run with some friends today. Ice all over the place. So we quit after 5.5 figuring we were lucky to escape with our lives. The options were sidewalk skating rinks or run in the middle of the road with cars threatening to whack us at 30 to 40 mph. To give you some idea of the conditions we decided the cars were safer.

As a benchmark, when you were running 6:30 MP were you running 17:3X 5k'S AND 1:20 half marathons?

Perch, I had a 1:21 half that year, but never got the 5K under 18:00 - was right at 18:00 and never found a good race to go under. I am not sure if that is due to just being older - age was 42 at the time - and lacking leg speed or whether the marathon training was not conducive to a faster 5K. Or maybe I am just not a good 5K runner. Ribs is right that 2:50 was right at around 6:30 pace. Some miles were under and some over but it was a pretty evenly split effort (Cleveland). There was some serious wind along the lake that year right at the 21-22 mile mark - right when you are suffering anyway and I know my times slipped during those miles. I guess us experienced folks are stuck with fine-tuning. I'm not sure I could ever get back to a 57 VO2 Max. It must decrease some with age - or maybe it's just that the chassis can't keep up with the engine! Perch, great PBJ Special today. I think I will take a crack at one of those tomorrow. 7 easy miles today - avg. pace 7:53. I'm committing to six weeks of PT exercises for the knee - hoping to cure it once and for all. Lame, sorry to hear you are still deaing with the sciatica. It sounds like it's causing piriformis pain. That sidelined me for several months and I remember how painful it was to drive any distance. I hope the shots help you feel better. Maine, good luck with the wave run. I'm betting you nail it. I am going to try one on Sunday and may use very similar paces. Ribs, I hope the run goes well today and you are pain free. PreDawn, I fried my last Shuffle running in the pouring rain with it clipped to my hat and was music-less for a good month before my brother replaced it as a Christmas gift. I ran a few long runs without it too and have to say that I much prefer having some diversion for those long runs. I am not going to run with it in the rain any more so there will be more silent runs - but they are not always a bad thing.

Craneium thinks Twocat must be a great athlete because he keeps referring to himself in the third person like Ricky Henderson used to.

Two of the greatest qualities in life are Patience and Wisdom:

Thanks for that Holly, I'll think about Ribs advice next time I try it. Didn't dickyg go ages ago, or am I having a senior moment? Roy

Twocat, I'm interested in the response to your question too. I have similar issues to your DW. My LDL is higher than it should be but I have always been told not to worry about it because my ratio is so fantastic. I even had one doctor tell me that running increases HDL. I am not sure whether this is true though. I wonder if this is a common issue for women?