Sub 1:30 Half Marathon in 2020 (Read 220 times)

darkwave


Mother of Cats

    I think I asked this question before, but I don't remember the answer.  Where did this chart come from?

     

    I usually prefer not to treat stuff like the Ten Commandments until I know who went up which mountain to get them from whom....

    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

     

    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

    JamesD


    JamesD

      Would those time periods reduce relatively for the half?  My hardest long run (including 6-8km of HMP) is usually 2 weeks out and my hardest tempo workout is 10-12 days out.  I would imagine the benefit would take less than half the time periods since a half-marathon is less than half of a marathon...if you know what I mean.

       

      I doubt it.  Taking that to its extreme, a 5K is less than 1/8 of a marathon, but you wouldn't want to do a hard VO2max workout 2 days (1/8 of 12-15 days) before a 5K.  I guess your various workouts wouldn't be quite as long if you're training for a shorter race and running less volume, so it might not take as long to recover from them, but it still should take about the same length of time to benefit fully from them.

       

      For what it's worth, having your hardest tempo workout 10-12 days out works just fine, according to the table.  I've gotten into a pattern of having my hardest VO2max workout the Sunday 13 days before a Saturday goal race (school track is available on Sundays); a medium-length tempo, say 3 miles at a bit faster than HMP, about 8 days before the race; and a handful of 200s for sharpening about 5 days before.  If it's not a goal race and is short, I may add a long run 8 days before and move the tempo to 5 days before and the 200s to 2-3 days before.

      Post-1987 PRs:  5K 19:12 (2017); 10K 39:35 (Sept '19); Half 1:30:14 (March '19)

      2020 Goals:  35+ mpw, Half<1:30, 10K<39:35, 5K<19:30

      JMac11


      Taper Czar

        I'll respond to the rest later, but here's the source:

         

        https://runnersconnect.net/coach-corner/how-long-before-you-benefit-from-a-workout/

        5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

         

        Next Race: NYC Half (3/15/20)

        Marky_Mark_17


          Would those time periods reduce relatively for the half?  My hardest long run (including 6-8km of HMP) is usually 2 weeks out and my hardest tempo workout is 10-12 days out.  I would imagine the benefit would take less than half the time periods since a half-marathon is less than half of a marathon...if you know what I mean.

           

          I agree with James - I wouldn't have thought so - the energy systems are the same even if you're training for a different distance.

           

          Bear in mind the purpose of long runs is generally aerobic endurance - but the purpose of that harder long run with tempo close to the race is actually to dial in the pace that you're going to run at.  So it's totally OK to be doing that close to the race because the purpose isn't really about developing aerobic endurance - it's about getting your pacing set for the race.

          5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:58 (Nov-19) | 10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) 

          HM: 1:10:46 (Nov-19) | FM: 2:57:36 (Oct-17)

          Last race: Bays Night of 5's 5000m, 20 Dec, 15:39 (PB)

          Up next: Southern Lakes Half Marathon, 4 Apr

          "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

          JamesD


          JamesD

            I think I asked this question before, but I don't remember the answer.  Where did this chart come from?

             

            I usually prefer not to treat stuff like the Ten Commandments until I know who went up which mountain to get them from whom....

             

            The article I saved that has the chart is from Jeff Gaudette of RunnersConnect and has a note that a version of it originally appeared on competitor.com (now PodiumRunner)  I'm pretty sure I've seen it elsewhere too, but I couldn't find it in quick flips through Daniels V2, Hudson's Run Faster, or Magill's Build Your Running Body..

            Post-1987 PRs:  5K 19:12 (2017); 10K 39:35 (Sept '19); Half 1:30:14 (March '19)

            2020 Goals:  35+ mpw, Half<1:30, 10K<39:35, 5K<19:30

            JMac11


            Taper Czar

              Steve - I think it's more of a relative thing. You're probably fine doing a "long" run 2 weeks before your half, but only if you're capping it around 2 hours of time.

               

              Mark - any thoughts on the original question I posed?

               

              I actually really like James's run down to a Half, with a slight tweak. I would say Hardest V02 max 17 days out, hardest long run 14 days out (with the caveat above), hardest tempo run 10-11 days out, then taper down. Mine won't really look like that because I'll be training more for my full, but I'll hit some of those ideas.

              5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

               

              Next Race: NYC Half (3/15/20)

              SteveChCh


              Hot Weather Complainer

                Yep, that sounds perfect for me too.  I actually reduce the long run a bit in the last 4-6 weeks - if I've had a good build up, I like to have 2 hour runs in the bank by then and use the last 5 "long" runs for adjusting to race pace at the end of the run.  So I'll keep it to around the half-marathon distance.

                 

                VO2 Max is especially hard in summer - I'm dreading them at the moment.  But they pay off in autumn when, in a good training cycle, everything seems to click.

                PB:  Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

                Recent Races:  South Island Half-Marathon 2018 1:32.39 Auckland Waterfront Half-Marathon 2019 1:30.49

                2020 Planned Races:  Christchurch 10km Series (Park), February 2 (42:23 - HOT), City 2 Surf (14km), March 22, Christchurch Half-Marathon May 31, South Island Half-Marathon August 2, Cherry Blossom 10km September 13

                Marky_Mark_17


                  Sorry JMac, I caught the subsequent discussion but totally missed the original question!

                   

                  Assuming a Sunday race, generally I'd run my hardest VO2 workout on the Saturday (normally a tough track session with 800's or 1600's) three weeks before the race (22 days out).

                   

                  My big hard workout tends to be the Saturday or Sunday two weeks out from the race (14-15 days) and is normally a long interval workout like 4 x 8-10 mins @ HMP.  It's not really VO2 Max as the intervals are a little too long and the HR doesn't always get quite high enough.  I find this works well, as those workouts take real physical effort as well as the mental effort to psych yourself up for them - when you nail them you know it's all downhill to the race, as generally the next week will be easier, and then you're in race week.

                   

                  I don't always do it this way though.  There's been several occasions where I've run a 10km race a couple weeks out from a goal HM (sometimes 1 week out!).  This was the case for my two best HM's.  Basically it just replaces this hard workout.

                   

                  I then generally do a lighter track session on the Saturday before race week (8 days out).  Typically 200's and 400's, just to get a little extra speed.

                   

                  Normally there's an interval workout during each week too, but that's generally more of an LT effort.  Also I keep the Sunday as a long run, but it's easy pace and gets progressively shorter.  That combo (hard workout Sat / long run Sun) won't work for everyone, but I like it (at least until I hit the big 2km hill on the way home).

                   

                  This isn't that different to what James has suggested, except I don't normally have any long tempo efforts in there.  The long intervals are basically a broken-up tempo effort, I guess, where you get more volume at target pace, but a few short recoveries in between.  At a pinch I could probably do 25-30 mins @ HMP but I've gone off long tempo's a bit for HM or shorter (some evidence suggests they do not offer great bang for your training buck - albeit they are great for dialling in race day pace).

                  5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:58 (Nov-19) | 10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) 

                  HM: 1:10:46 (Nov-19) | FM: 2:57:36 (Oct-17)

                  Last race: Bays Night of 5's 5000m, 20 Dec, 15:39 (PB)

                  Up next: Southern Lakes Half Marathon, 4 Apr

                  "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                  flavio1980


                  King of taper madness

                    Zebano - I like your recommendation, blowtorches are awesome!

                     

                    Brewing - I think this is the 2nd time you shoot yourself in the foot.

                    Stop shooting yourself in the foot. Why are you trying so hard to get injured?

                     

                    Jmac - no tracking information. Not that I was expecting since the entry fee is 15 euro.

                    It seems to be well organised though if looking at past years events.

                    The course is 2 loops around town and they’re changing the start line this year. I hope they know what they’re doing.

                    I’m liking the discussion going around.

                    I’ve done a 6x800 this Tuesday. I’ve even asked the coach and he confirmed it was the actual workout.

                    I’ll have a call after the race to get more details but for now I’m trusting the guy with a book published about running.

                    Perhaps it was to get the legs moving since it was around 10k pace.

                     

                    Elizabeth - chocolate flavour in stouts is great.

                    I guess your next few workouts will guide your pace in your race, but I agree it’s very close to make the necessary gains.

                    Who knows, fitness gains are not a slow ascent, sometimes you get break throughs from past successful training blocks.

                     

                    Me - So there was no escape. I’ve got a cold . I’m fighting back as best as I can but there will be damage as the virus makes its way to killing my cells. Maybe I'm lucky and it kills the gluttony cells, but most likely it will kill my v02max cells. sigh...

                    PRs: 1500m 4:54.1 3K 10:34 5K 18:05 HM 1:23:30 - Up next: Chase the 5k PR (18:05)

                    zebano


                      JMac, so sorry about your doggo it sounds like you have some great memories.

                       

                      DPS - that's a good looking vizla there I've heard they're great running buddies.

                       

                      JMAC I love that you track 12 / 26 / 52 week averages. Just because I'm that type of person is that a pure average or is it a median? That certainly sounds a lot more meaningful than what did I do in the final 8-12 weeks before my race?

                      Flavio - Buffalo Theory suggests you need to make your vo2max and other running related cells stronger then so that the cold can kill off the weak glutton cells! =)

                       

                      That chart is very interesting as the furthest I'd explored such thoughts was when Luke Humphries (paraphrased from the Hanson's Marathon Method book) says they do a 10 day taper because that's how long it takes to absorb training ergo the last workout is 10 days out. IIRC their last workout is 10 @ MP which is closer to Threshold in that chart so things should workout. That said they don't do any sharpening of speed or VO2 if I'm remembering correctly.

                       

                      I just lost 2 days training to a stomach virus, and I feel magnificent. My resting HR dropped. I'll have to decide if I adjust next weeks cutback week to be less so based on this but I'm excited to get out and run today.

                      watsonc123


                        +1 to chocolate stout.  And any good black beer.

                         

                        My leg is getting better.  I had another physio yesterday.  I have been double leg bridges, back stretch and foam rolling  The week before I could do zero single left leg bridges - yesterday I did six.  This week I will be doing double leg, then single leg, back stretch and calf raises.

                         

                        I have had many left leg injuries, that have accumulated over time.  The rehab is helping my whole leg, my achilles is feeling better than it has for years.

                        PRs: 5km 18:43 (Dec 2015), 10km 40:28 (Aug 2019), half 1:26:16 (Sep 2016), full 3:09:28 (Jun 2015)

                         

                        40+ PRs: 5km 20:10 (Dec 2019), 10km 40:28 (Aug 2019), half 1:29:39 (Jun 2018)

                        Marky_Mark_17


                          Flavio - I was kidding about the taper madness, really! Get well soon.

                           

                          Watson - that's positive news.  No fun having an injury but with any luck the rehab will help you come back stronger overall.

                           

                          Zebano - I personally think there's a lot of value in a speed-sharpening workout or two in the fortnight before the race.  I almost always throw a few sprints in there at some point leading up to the race.

                           

                          Me - had a great track session this morning which was surprisingly the first of the year.  Legs have felt strong but a bit sluggish since coming back from holiday, but this workout definitely kick-started things in a big way.  Did 2 x mile, 4 x 200, 2 x mile, and was able to really hammer the last mile repeat.  It's funny how throwing some sprints into the middle of the workout actually trick you into running the longer repeats faster.  I'll have to remember that one.

                          5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:58 (Nov-19) | 10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) 

                          HM: 1:10:46 (Nov-19) | FM: 2:57:36 (Oct-17)

                          Last race: Bays Night of 5's 5000m, 20 Dec, 15:39 (PB)

                          Up next: Southern Lakes Half Marathon, 4 Apr

                          "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                          flavio1980


                          King of taper madness

                            I hope you guys are copying your posts before submitting, or else risking losing them to the current site issues.

                             

                            - I might have had a hand in this cold.

                            I sudenly had the bright idea to go with more natural foods and I might have unintentionally reduced my calories intake, even though I was eating similar portions.

                            Anyway I'm floating back and forth between feeling better and feeling bad.

                            Fingers crossed that I wake up better tomorrow.

                            The big lesson here is to never irritate the gods of food by avoiding pizza and I intend to go on a crusade to please said gods.

                            Today I had Canolo siciliano AND tiramisu for dessert!

                             

                            This will be a late start at 9:30,

                            I might have to eat something, usually I don't eat anything or just have some caloric drink.

                             

                            Weather is currently set to be spectacular with temps between 6 to 11 degrees celsius during the race and almost no wind.

                             

                            The course is 2 laps around town, so I have the option of DNF before the 2nd leg if I'm not feeling it.

                            During my PR race I started suffering around 14km, let's see what this one brings.

                            Based on last year results the field will be relatively deep and I'll have company all the way if I run 1h24.

                            I'm still feeling bouncy like I felt before previous PRs, I might still have it.

                            PRs: 1500m 4:54.1 3K 10:34 5K 18:05 HM 1:23:30 - Up next: Chase the 5k PR (18:05)

                            darkwave


                            Mother of Cats

                               

                               

                              Me - had a great track session this morning which was surprisingly the first of the year.  Legs have felt strong but a bit sluggish since coming back from holiday, but this workout definitely kick-started things in a big way.  Did 2 x mile, 4 x 200, 2 x mile, and was able to really hammer the last mile repeat.  It's funny how throwing some sprints into the middle of the workout actually trick you into running the longer repeats faster.  I'll have to remember that one.

                               

                              I've experienced something similar when doing track workouts after racing road miles.  After racing at around 5:30 pace, doing a mile repeat in just under 6:00 pace feels shockingly easy, in contrast to how it feels at other times.

                               

                              I also think that athletes with confidence/overthinking issues can benefit from doing fast 200s (not saying this is you) - it raises the ceiling on how fast they believe they can run.

                               

                              Flavio - good luck tomorrow - I hope you continue to feel better!

                              Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                               

                              And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                              JamesD


                              JamesD

                                Flavio - Good luck!  Let us know how Italian races compare to Brazilian ones.

                                 

                                JMac - Thanks.  To rephrase my question with background:  After next week (hope I’m not jinxing myself), I expect my base over a 7-week period to be 45 mpw, my highest by about 13%, and my 12/26/52 week averages should be 39/34/34 mpw, close to my peaks from different times last year.  Once I start faster running, should the new base give me a noticeable improvement (compared to the same point in previous cycles - e.g., time in my first set of 1200s at a standard effort) right away, or will it be a month or so after I finish the base period before I should expect to notice much difference?  FYI, in this shortened cycle I’m planning on doing the same workouts as before and just hope that they’ll be a little faster, and I may do one or two more than before (maybe 2 per week in non-long run weeks), but I’m not planning on doing longer or more intense workouts.

                                 

                                Mark - In your 2xmile/4x200/2xmile workout, how much rest do you have between each run & between each set?  My favorite track workout is 5x1200 (which seems about like 5xmile would be for you, given our respective fitness levels) with about 3:15 walk/jog rest between each 1200.  Putting a few 200s in the middle is an intriguing idea, but I wonder if the full recovery between 200s would be too much recovery by the time I started the second set of 1200s.

                                 

                                Me - Sinus trouble is still hanging around, so I feel kind of gross, but it’s only in/above the neck and doesn’t seem to be affecting my running.  Got in 49 miles as planned, but was too tired today to do any strides. That may be a result of going too fast on Wednesday afternoon - it was pleasantly warm (77/25) so I was loose, and my easy pace was about 15 sec/mile faster than I had expected.  After an off day, Friday’s run was steady, with each lap at basically the same speed, but today each lap was slower than the previous one. Wasn’t all that tired, and nothing feels injured or even very sore, I just didn’t have much strength. Guess that’s normal for increasing mileage.

                                 

                                Sun - off

                                Mon - 13.5 miles easy @ 8:32

                                Tues - 7.3 easy @ 8:28

                                Weds - 10.4 moderate @ 8:13

                                Thurs - off

                                Fri - 10.4 easy @ 8:26

                                Sat - 7.4 easy & slow @ 8:48

                                 

                                Total - 49.0 miles

                                12-week average - 38 mpw

                                Post-1987 PRs:  5K 19:12 (2017); 10K 39:35 (Sept '19); Half 1:30:14 (March '19)

                                2020 Goals:  35+ mpw, Half<1:30, 10K<39:35, 5K<19:30