Forums >Racing>2018 3:20 (and beyond)
Dwave, I respect your concerns. I have not done a formal structured training or many marathons that I can provide insights based on. Hence I typically observe and learn from the group. I will take this feedback and try to be active.
And now, in my role as Thread Usurper and Ruthless Dictator (TURD)... Arvind - if you are going to participate on this thread, I ask that you fully participate. Please do not continue to show up at odd occasions, dump your training week, ignore everyone else, ask for advice on your own running, and then disappear again. Acting in that way is selfish and disruptive to the thread. I am not saying that you need to participate every day, or that you need to give shout outs to everyone else on the thread. But there is a middle ground in which one both gives and takes. Over the past 18+ months, over two separate message boards, there has been very little give from you, only take. And that deprives the rest of us of the insights I'm sure you could provide. Either contribute to the thread by commenting on others' training, offering congratulations, or providing other insight, or leave. To anyone else relatively new to this thread - I understand if you think I'm being mean here. Please understand in turn that this has been a recurring issue for sometime, and my concerns here have been been stated by others several times before, politely and nicely. But the message has not gotten through, leaving it to me as TURD-2018 to spell it out as explicitly as I can.
And now, in my role as Thread Usurper and Ruthless Dictator (TURD)...
Arvind - if you are going to participate on this thread, I ask that you fully participate. Please do not continue to show up at odd occasions, dump your training week, ignore everyone else, ask for advice on your own running, and then disappear again. Acting in that way is selfish and disruptive to the thread.
I am not saying that you need to participate every day, or that you need to give shout outs to everyone else on the thread. But there is a middle ground in which one both gives and takes. Over the past 18+ months, over two separate message boards, there has been very little give from you, only take. And that deprives the rest of us of the insights I'm sure you could provide.
Either contribute to the thread by commenting on others' training, offering congratulations, or providing other insight, or leave.
To anyone else relatively new to this thread - I understand if you think I'm being mean here. Please understand in turn that this has been a recurring issue for sometime, and my concerns here have been been stated by others several times before, politely and nicely. But the message has not gotten through, leaving it to me as TURD-2018 to spell it out as explicitly as I can.
RIP Milkman
(de-lurk): The Final 12 week plan I believe is for runner doing 110 miles per week, as he states that as an "example" before talking about the program. The thing about Daniels is that you really need to understand the book and not just follow the plans, as I find things in there that are often inconsistent with what his main ideas are. My guess it that somebody on his staff just threw together a plan and he never fully reviewed them.
A good example is what you said: he specifically talks about maxing out T work at 10% per week. So how could someone running 50 miles per week do the same program as someone running 100 miles per week? He separates this out in other plans like the 2Q, but this 12-week plan might only be for super high mileage types.
Additionally, he talks about T runs being around 20 minutes. How in the world can you do 5 straight at T unless you are a world-class athlete? This gets to DKG's point about it being for that type of person, someone who can run T pace around 4:30.
I even modify some stuff in his 2Q plan that I don't think makes sense. For example, in the 56-70 mile plan, he has a run with 4x2T + 2x1T. That's 10 miles of tempo. Doesn't make any sense. His 71-85 plan has fewer T miles that week, so it must have been a mistake by an editor.
You're better off following the 2Q plan on just shortening. I did it for effectively 14 weeks for my last marathon and was very happy with it.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
Mother of Cats
I do believe the Daniels Elite Plan was originally designed for sub 2:10 Mararthoners.
Heh - the Daniel's elite plan is intended for actual, true, world-class elites. Whodathunk it?
No wonder it's darn near suicidal for us mere mortals.
Arvind - thanks for your understanding. I appreciate that you might be reluctant to provide training feedback because you feel you still have much to learn - it's actually a refreshing change from much of the internet! But you can contribute in other ways - congratulating or consoling others on their races or return from injury, asking questions about others' training if you see something interesting.
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
Also, looking at using a Daniels plan for my Fall marathon. I want something shorter than 18 weeks though. So, I was thinking of using the 12 week plan, but it seems brutal. The first quality run of the program is 4E + 8M + 1T + 6M + 1T + 2E = 22 miles with 14 at MP and 2 at threshold. And then he has some runs that are 22-23 miles long with 13-14 miles at threshold (!) in total. If anyone has experience with it, I'm very interested in hearing it. Another option is to go for the 2Q again, and cut it a bit short.
(sshhh, my students are taking a final! must...type...softly...)
Pesto: A few years ago, I used a plan from the Daniels 2nd edition that incorporated quite a few runs of these types. I did change the miles to "time at easy pace" (there was a formula for how to do that, but I don't recall it exactly...maybe 1M = 6 minutes easy for an elite runner, so a 20M LR = 2 hours of easy running for a non-elite). There was also a conversion for MP and T-pace, so that run wasn't quite as brutal as it looks. But, they were still difficult. Admittedly, that cycle did leave me a little fatigued late in the marathon, but all of the LT work paid off in the next cycle. (I also peaked at around 92mpw that cycle, which could also have been a contributing factor to my fatigue.)
Dad: Interestingly, no itching yet.
Cobra Commander Keen
JMac - Imagine seeing you in this thread! Welcome back. While I do need to reread Daniels' book again before starting my plan for the fall, the T paced stuff isn't necessarily at one specific pace - it slows down the longer the T segments are. The 20-minute segments at somewhere between HM and 10k pace are the classic option, though. And I've heard of transposing distance to time, too. That way the proportions of time spent at given paces can be the same as an elite, which avoids the killer issues of having too many miles at a certain effort compared to overall mileage. My past plan actually specified "the lesser of XX miles or XX time" for LRs.
DWave - Well put (again).
Arvind - I've been around for probably close to 3 years and just did my first formal plan, so it's certainly possible to contribute without that experience. That also puts you in a great position to ask questions to learn about the "why" and "why not" of training, which has helped me quite a bit.
ETA: Blast! OMR beat me to the distance>time conversion thing.
5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22
Upcoming Races:
OKC Memorial 5k - April 27
Bun Run 5k - May 4
Strict WTF adherent
Pesto - So that's like a size 14 US? I'm in the same boat and usually stick with Kinvaras. The Zealot basically feels like a more cushioned version if you're interested (I hate the upper material, but whatever).
Also, I did a workout like that once. Once. Husdon has some stuff with shorter periods of fast running that might be more suitable for people who don;t want to get hurt.
RLK - If you promise to run a non-B2B race in it, I will ship you a meat-product costume of your choosing.
SC - Excellent pic. A framer for sure.
So the good thing about jogging a crappy marathon is that you can get right back to running. On a 90 degree day. With a fever, apparently.
Pesto - That final 12-week plan sure sounds like an elite plan, like somebody else mentioned. I think he has some words in the book about who it's for as well. If you shorten the 18-week 2Q plan, he has a section earlier on that tells you what weeks to cut out. It's a table with a bunch of numbers in it from 1-24 placed in the 4 different phases of training. If you have 10 weeks to train he recommends you use the numbers 1-10 in the table, and whatever phases those weeks fall into. Since you are off a strong program already you can probably rearrange the table ignoring Phase 1, and then get a table with the numbers 1-18 in Phase 2, 3, and 4. Then use number 1-14 to determine how many weeks to spend in each phase. My plan for Amsterdam in October is to use the 18-week 2Q plan, and right now I am at the last week of my first 6-week period with mostly easy running, the next 6 weeks I will follow his suggested 6-week progression of reps to help develop leg strength (mixed in with some fartleks and shorter tempo efforts and mostly easy miles), and then I will jump into 2Q. First workout for me (on the 40-55 mile max plan) is 4E+8M+1T+1E. Not as crazy as the first workout of the final 12-week plan, but certainly no walk in the park either.
Darkwave - Good to see you are on your way back from B. I stayed pretty conservative and had one week of no running, two weeks of all easy (although with some hills mixed in, but still at an easy pace), mixed in some strides the fourth week with some sort of progressive long-ish run at the end of that week, fartlek last week (week 5), and just one or two days planned with any faster stuff this week. I feel it's worked out really well for me to take it easy for this long.
Brew - Did you settle on a plan? What are your PRs so far (just wanted to get a feel for how aggressive your goal is)?
So I ran 10.6 miles yesterday for my weekly mid-long run. Started out with the dog for close to 3 miles, kept it easy for a couple more miles, then hit a hill that was steep enough that it was nearly impossible to keep an easy effort. I therefore decided to step up to a more moderate effort (a hair slower than tempo pace) and kept it for about 4.5 miles. Had to stop a few times for traffic lights and such, but towards the end it turns out I ran a strava segment that's 3/4 of a mile long at 6:48 pace. My legs felt great after a day and a half of rest and best of all, no bathroom breaks needed (less coffee seems to work)!
5k: 20:32 (1/17) | HM: 1:34:37 (2/18) | FM: 3:31:37 (3/18)
Getting back into it
Problem Child
Brew - Did you settle on a plan? What are your PRs so far (just wanted to get a feel for how aggressive your goal is)? So I ran 10.6 miles yesterday for my weekly mid-long run. Started out with the dog for close to 3 miles, kept it easy for a couple more miles, then hit a hill that was steep enough that it was nearly impossible to keep an easy effort. I therefore decided to step up to a more moderate effort (a hair slower than tempo pace) and kept it for about 4.5 miles. Had to stop a few times for traffic lights and such, but towards the end it turns out I ran a strava segment that's 3/4 of a mile long at 6:48 pace. My legs felt great after a day and a half of rest and best of all, no bathroom breaks needed (less coffee seems to work)!
I'm still going back and forth. I know Hanson's and if Daniels is as screwed up as I'm starting to fear I might resort to what I know and try and up the mileage. I have a month which feels like a day. On top of that the last workout I did didn't go TOO well in my opinion (5x800 at 3:10-20) only because I was standing around during the breaks and not jogging. Hanson's says if you can't jog recovery you're going too fast. Part of me makes excuses of still not being 100%. The 5th interval took damn near everything I had but looking at my pickup towards the end (like sub 6:00 pace to get under for the split) I might have found another. Right now I think I'll work in some speed work and TRY one of those marathon (7:24 currently fitness based off a 5K) runs Daniels has.
PR
5K was in March at 20:22
Marathon was 3:12x in 2016 at CIM Aiming for a 3:20 and everything lined up that day and with training. 12 months before I hit 3:23 on the same course.
Half is like 1:32 or 1:34 around 2015 or 16.
10K...Probably in the 43 or something. I haven't run one in a LONG time.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
Maybe not the best marketing strategy; <2:10 marathoners are renowned for getting their training plans out of a book.
Actually, it may be smart on his part as we all think we are sub 2:10 marathoners. Hold on a second, I have to take this call from Canova, will be back later.
PR's: Mar - 2:44;50 1/2 Mar - 1:16:59 10 Mile 58:03 10K - 33:30 (Back in High School)
On the comeback trail.
Resident Millennial
sclever- haha, awesome photographer sleuthing!and crushing it with the GIFs.
dwave- as usual, you have great perspective bf reminded me to not be greedy - i got big PRs in 5k and mile this season, why shouldn't that be enough? it totally is. the best laid plans of mice and men...
your "hill stride" at 60-70seconds is quite long! we do an early-season activity (i hesitate to call it a workout) of a bunch of *very* steep 20sec hill strides.
...added later... you are an excellent TURD. (never thought I'd tell someone that..?)
kk- good luck with moving!
pj- track is back, for you? nice! what are you training for?
arvind- i was just planning on ignoring you, but i am glad dwave stepped in. i think that's your 2nd warning. don't do it again. this forum isn't a place for sponges to soak up knowledge/advice without squeezing out a little of their own input.
dad/pj- nick willis actually had a really eloquent response, did you see it? if not: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12044099
OMR- cryptic ... ok when i was dealing with hip labrum things a few years ago, i was stuck at 58% BW for several weeks, and even 1% increases felt like an accomplishment!
max- hahaha. well, if you DNS and decide to go for a short run, give me a ring.
pesto- i ran in kinvaras like 5 years ago - never for marathons though - until i got a stress reaction wearing them. too minimal of a drop for me, decidedly. i really like NB Vazee Pace and you might too, given you preference for lighter shoes but still with a bit of drop. i think they are phasing them out and replacing with the NB 890. i ran CIM (and i do most of my runs) in NB vazee prism, which is being replaced with Vongo/1500.
mcB- oh don't worry ... B2B costume already designed. jersey boy might appreciate it. you'll have to wait and see!and haha, "meat product"... the only type i am interested in is costumes!
dkgg- " I have to take this call from Canova, will be back later." lol
talked to coach and also got bloodwork. either way, taking a break now. "run, don't train. and only when you really want to.", he says. i will still do this mile race on sunday, but whatever it is it is.
_________________________________________________mile, 5:26 /5k, 19:34 /10k, 41:00 /13.1, 1:31:49 /26.2, 3:12:58
Wow, things have been moving fast around here! I'll try to keep up but apologize in advance for what I miss, which is probably a lot.
rlk: Sounds like a mental/overall break is a good idea. Who knows, with a more relaxed mindset you could surprise yourself in the mile this weekend.
dkg: "Hold on a second, I have to take this call from Canova" - Ha! I've been scared off by Daniels' plans in his books, in part because of the volume of T pace and in part because I don't want to have to figure that much out when I'm trying to plan a run (his plans look like equations to me). Probably my loss.
dwave: Interesting about the adi Sub2 shoe. I'd like to try it - in general adi shoes fit my feet really well, and I loved the adios.
rune: Glad you had a good run - sounds like you're fully recovered from the marathon. When does your next training plan start?
OMR: Nice job on the AlterG - and nice you have access to one! I'm sure the fitness will come back quickly.
As for me, the week's been fine (easy running, 7, 6, 6 miles), then last night when I was standing around at a track meet I suddenly realized my left leg was hurting, up high, and every time I lifted it to take a step it was really painful. I have no idea what, if anything, I did -- there was just suddenly an awareness of pain. I was gritting my teeth walking the dog last night it hurt so much. I took some advil, went to sleep, and today it is better but still hurts, so I didn't run this morning. So weird. I haven't felt anything like this before. I'm hoping a day of rest will be sufficient.
Anyone see Galen Rupp is running Prague marathon this weekend? He said his asthma was triggered in Boston around mile 18 and he dropped out, but wants to use his fitness from training.
And re: Portland Marathon. The city has been saying they're going to be requesting proposals for a new group to step in for 2019, but then they keep delaying the proposal release date. There are a few groups who want to submit proposals but they are frustrated that the city keeps delaying the process -- this marathon seems jinxed.
#artbydmcbride
Hi Ya'll!! just a bemused lurker here. Have you considered opening up your running logs so interested parties could learn even more from your training regimens? Thanks in advance!
Runners run
Speed Surplus
5:27 / 18:49 / 40:32 / 88:12 / 3:12
you can look at my log anytime you want
"Famous last words" ~Bhearn