Flu shot heresy (Read 2152 times)

Ed4


Barefoot and happy

    An interesting article in The Atlantic:


    Does the Vaccine Matter?

    This is the curious state of debate about the government’s two main weapons in the fight against pandemic flu. At first, government officials declare that both vaccines and drugs are effective. When faced with contrary evidence, the adherents acknowledge that the science is not as crisp as they might wish. Then, in response to calls for placebo-controlled trials, which would provide clear results one way or the other, the proponents say such studies would deprive patients of vaccines and drugs that have already been deemed effective. “We can’t just let people die,” says Cox.

     

    Students of U.S. medical history will find this circular logic familiar: it is a long-recurring theme in American medicine, and one that has, on occasion, had deadly consequences.

     

    I find the arguments against randomized trials really weak.  Every randomized trial risks letting people die.  That's the only way to find out what works.  

     

    Also from the article:

    The history of flu vaccination suggests other reasons to doubt claims that it dramatically reduces mortality. In 2004, for example, vaccine production fell behind, causing a 40 percent drop in immunization rates. Yet mortality did not rise. In addition, vaccine “mismatches” occurred in 1968 and 1997: in both years, the vaccine that had been produced in the summer protected against one set of viruses, but come winter, a different set was circulating. In effect, nobody was vaccinated. Yet death rates from all causes, including flu and the various illnesses it can exacerbate, did not budge.
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    Old, Slow, Happy

      I have read this type of information before.  I was also in college during the last swine flu "outbreak" and the resulting problems/medical issues from the vaccine.  I have elected not to get any flu vaccines since then.  I'm not sure it's the right thing to do , but not getting the vaccine seems right for me.


      A Dance with Monkeys

        The influenza vaccine in current use has been tested in many many RCTs over the years.

         

        LR, why did you put outbreak in quotes?  You think the governments of the world are lying to us, and that those deaths and reports of all the sick people are just being made up?  To what end?

         

        I have never been in a car accident.  Yet I wear my seatbelt for every ride.  It is proven safe and effective.  And while I try to drive safely, I know it is still possible to get into a crash.


        Hey, nice marmot!

          You think the governments of the world are lying to us, and that those deaths and reports of all the sick people are just being made up?  To what end?

           

           

           

          Just to play devil's advocate here, flu vaccines aren't free.  Some people are in position to make a lot of money, provided they can sell a lot of vaccines.  It is not inconcievable that these people might be playing a major role influencing or even dictating government policy (ie Everyone ought to get a flu shot).

           

          Also, while I doubt the reports of sick people are made up, how you report something does make a big difference.  "5 Flu-Related Deaths in Iowa" and "Flu Kills Nearly Half a Dozen Children in the Heartland" could both lead the same story.  It's not so much what you say, as how you say it.  And how you say it is usually determined by who's doing the funding, as you'd expect. 

           

          Having said that, just because someone has a financial motivation to give you a certain piece of advice, does not by itself indicate that following that advice isn't in your best interest.

          Ben

           

          "The world is my country, science is my religion."-- Christiaan Huygens


          A Dance with Monkeys


            Having said that, just because someone has a financial motivation to give you a certain piece of advice, does not by itself indicate that following that advice isn't in your best interest.

             

            I  agree.

             

            Doctors, nurses, healthcare providers too should be paid to take care of patients.   Why would we expect otherwise.

             

            BTW, before you think I am somehow a bought person, understand that I never ever ever take any stuff from pharma.  No pens.  No lunches.  No 5-day golf trips.  No viagra ties.  Nada. 

             

            I am not sure what you mean about your midwest example. I rarely give credence to headlines.  Death and illness statistics are also available from less drama-inducing sources.

             

            Most companies that produce influenza vaccine do so with almost no profit, so there is little incentive to induce governments to push vaccination.  Most of those pushing vaccination are nongovernmental officials who are experts in the field and who are from around the world; the government is responding to expert advice.


            Dave

              If you did take a Viagra tie, would it stick straight out like Dilbert's?

               

              I ran a mile and I liked it, liked it, liked it.

              dgb2n@yahoo.com


              A Dance with Monkeys

                An interesting article in The Atlantic:

                Does the Vaccine Matter?

                 

                The main drive of the article is that current medical approaches are not perfect across the board at treating or preventing influenza. That the vaccine or that Tamiflu do not protect everybody perfectly does not mean that they protect nobody.

                 

                This is what we know:

                • influenza kills and causes great morbidity and discomfort
                • current treatments reduce the burden of disease and death in most people
                • current treatments may not help everybody
                • many research studies, including RCTs, have demonstrated safety of these treatments
                • the risk of death from influenza is substantially higher (orders of magnitude) than the risk of death from treatments


                A Dance with Monkeys

                  If you did take a Viagra tie, would it stick straight out like Dilbert's?

                   

                  Yes.  Usually.  RCTs bear this out up.

                    good to hear you say that Trent

                     

                    now that i got accepted to med school - my aunt suddenly thinks I'm qualified to decide whether or not her two kids should get the H1N1 vaccine.


                    A Dance with Monkeys

                      Now that you have been accepted to medical school and dedicated yourself to putting patients first, you also have given up a bit of freewill.  If your hospital tells you to vaccinate yourself for your patients' betterment, you have to comply.  Have fun! Smile
                        Now that you have been accepted to medical school and dedicated yourself to putting patients first, you also have given up a bit of freewill.  If your hospital tells you to vaccinate yourself for your patients' betterment, you have to comply.  Have fun! Smile
                        i just looked at the list of required vaccinations - and it is somewhat lengthy.   Is it bad that I am not a huge fan of needles? lol


                        A Dance with Monkeys

                          A buddy of mine in medical school used to pass out at the sight of blood.  He was once in an operation and the next thing he knew, he was flat on the floor, looking up at the rest of the team.  Heh.

                            No viagra ties.  Nada.

                             i rarely wear a tie, but this sounds intriguing. does it work on the principle that you tighten it to restrict blood flow in one place (your neck) and thus increase blood flow elsewhere?


                            A Dance with Monkeys

                              Yes.  Because when the blood flows to one region, you don't need it in the other.
                                A buddy of mine in medical school used to pass out at the sight of blood.  He was once in an operation and the next thing he knew, he was flat on the floor, looking up at the rest of the team.  Heh.

                                 it's such a relief to know i won't be the only one...