Forums >Racing>2018 3:20 (and beyond)
Problem Child
FB "garbage miles" or easy miles are just that. Easy. Most training plans I've read have runners add miles to warm up and cool downs first, then easy runs during the week and lastly the long run. It will depend who you ask but as I was looking at it 70 miles is 10 per day if you don't rest. I believe Jack Daniels has some 13-18 mile workouts during the week for his 2q or 4 week cycle. If you did 13 miles mid week (1.5 w/u, 10 workout, 1.5 c/d.), a 15 mile long run you'd need to do 42 miles for the rest of the week. If this was now a 16 mile mid week run you're looking at 39 miles for 4 days. Extend your 15 mile run to an 18 and you're looking at 36 miles over 4-5 days. It's a TON of running but I think even JD says you can double up (morning/evening run) to get miles in which MIGHT work for me.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
I'm WAY behind! So, I'm going to be selfish and just post some training and try to catch up more later.
My wife was in Portland, OR for the weekend and I was chasing the older two kiddos around.
I got 15.4 miles of easy running in and 2500y of swimming, as well as, some strength training 2 days this week. Goal was 18 miles, but with DW gone and some poor weather I was a few miles short.
I threw on the HR strap yesterday for the first time since getting back to training. It's sad how much you lose in a few weeks off running.
To keep my HR at my normal easy range, I had to slow down 30-40 seconds per mile compared to the weeks leading up to the marathon.
I guess there's no hitting pause in running, you're either gaining or losing.
Anyways, I'll try to catch up later.
Road Mile: 5:19 (2017), 5k: 17:09 (2021), 10k: 35:54 (2021), HM: 1:21:55 (2020), M: 2:53:18 (2021)
Question for everyone -- I am planning on base building from 50 to 70+ mpw with lots of garbage miles. What is the AHR zone for garbage miles? My wft plan is to not focus on speed, and just run more (and stay healthy). Thanks!
Question for everyone -- I am planning on base building from 50 to 70+ mpw with lots of garbage miles. What is the AHR zone for garbage miles? My wft plan is to not focus on speed, and just run more (and stay healthy).
Thanks!
I'd go 120-130.
I'm not a MAF expert or adherent, but you could read his stuff: (low carbs, high fat, lots of lowish HR running, avoid stress/cortisol excess/injury, etc) https://philmaffetone.com/180-formula/
ETA: say "Hi!" to ESG for me
Brew - Nice RR and nice miles last week! Looks like you are building up nicely for your training program.
Ilana - Great to hear that you're racing again. Remember, the amount of impressiveness is all relative and you are just getting back into it again.
Oregon - Hope that toe heals up! IO think I saw that high heels discussion earlier but I can't offer any real advice there
Keen - Sounds like you have a good plan for the half. Now go smash that race!
Pesto - Impressive work on your second marathon. I'm finally feeling up to doing any harder work now myself, 4 weeks after my race.
RLK - Taking a look at your runs on Strava it almost looks like you are regularly doing speedwork/racing 3 times per week and without knowing what your max HR is it also looks like your other runs might not be as easy as they should be? Might just be too much hard work right now?
Aubuti - Welcome back
SC - Nice week, and looks like reasonable effort on most of them as well!
Fb - Depends on what your max HR is. I try to stay under 145 for my easy runs with my max at 192 (although I'm just trying to work my way up to 50 mpw), but my average HR ends up being a bit lower. And I could probably do mine a hair slower.
Sorry to those of you I forgot, it's hard to keep up with it all here.
I made a mistake when I planned out my week and forgot to take into account the quick trip to Disneyland my family had planned for the weekend. Mileage therefore ended up on the low side, but I substituted a training run or two with spending pretty much all of Saturday on my feet, with some heat acclimation thrown in for good measure. Finished off ok on Sunday with 12 miles with 7x20 sec strides at the end where my legs felt surprisingly fresh for the strides. Gunning for 45 miles total this week, and I will probably do a fartlek session or similar to start getting my legs ready for the R-pace workouts that start in 2 weeks.
Weekly SummaryMonday, Apr 16, 2018 thru Sunday, Apr 22, 2018
<tfoot> </tfoot>
5k: 20:32 (1/17) | HM: 1:34:37 (2/18) | FM: 3:31:37 (3/18)
Getting back into it
Resident Millennial
rune- really appreciate the specific feedback! it's so hard to draw the line between "consistent training" (that's what ~50mpw, 3 speed workouts/week, 2x/week strength, etc sounds like to me) vs hammering away and not really recovering. you're right that my recovery days could be even slower. (i note that my running HR is prob higher than most of yours - 150bpm is a proper recovery run for me.) doing a really easy week this week - took off yesterday, will do a workout today, super ez run wednesday, sharpening "workout" thursday, off again friday (haven't taken 2 days off in a week in ages), shakeout saturday, and then race sunday. hopefully that, plus lots of sleep (got like 10hr last night!) and foam rolling does it.
the magness article dad linked to is insightful re. placement of off days. work-schedule-wise it is great for me to take a day off on fridays, but with a saturday race it sounds like that is theoretically a bad idea and in practice (my 5000 the other week) it was indeed a bad idea!
_________________________________________________mile, 5:26 /5k, 19:34 /10k, 41:00 /13.1, 1:31:49 /26.2, 3:12:58
Hey all. Thanks for the course info rlk and Jim E. I neglected to post last week's training. It was meant to be my "peak" week of 50-55 miles before a two week taper, but had an insanely busy work week so I missed a couple workouts. How do you folks get your weekly summaries in tables? Something from the RA logs? (and some look like they must be from Strava)
M: 4.5 easy with strides x5
T: URD
W: 7.4 tempo
Th: URD
F: 6.7 easy, with last km at MP
Sa: 17.4 easy, progressing to MP and HMP for last 3 miles
Su: 5.1 easy
Total: 41.1, all on treadmill
PRs: M: 3:12:59 (2015) / HM 1:31:49 (2015) / 10mi* 1:09:49 (2015) / 10k 42:58 (2014) / 5k 21:35 (2013)
Cobra Commander Keen
FB - I recommend less than 70% heart rate reserve (HRR) or less than 80% max HR if you don't know your resting HR. I personally go by HRR as I can update zones based on fitness changes as evidenced by a change in resting HR. For me, this is a limit of 149bpm for anything "easy".
More specifically, try using those levels as a ceiling that you don't exceed (ok, except maybe topping a big hill) rather than just averaging in that zone. You'd be amazed how much time you can spend above 70% and still average less than that.
RLK - I don't have anything to add more than what anyone else has said, but good luck getting back in the groove of things. 150 being recovery? Ah, the benefits of being young...
5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22
Upcoming Races:
OKC Memorial 5k - April 27
Bun Run 5k - May 4
Locally there is a marathon I've run twice. It's Sunday. The course was certified when I ran it in 2016. 2017, due to flooding and a bunch of snow they changed it (course measured short) and they just released the course. How would you feel about signing up for a race that changed last year due to events out of their control? How would you feel signing up this year and would you assume they'd go right back to the certified course they'd run for a few years? Would you demand a refund because they're claiming to have a certified course on their website? Personally I'd be pissed to have been training for the past 3 months to find out 5 days before the race the course measures short and ISN'T the certified "Boston Marathon Qualifying" course they've run in the past. Is it possible to run this race, obtain a qualifying time, submit it and get through the BAA "sniff test"? Do races have to keep up their certification or something with the BAA or is it a 1 time qualification and unless something major comes up (like 90% of people obtaining BQ times and BAA looking into distances) is it just going to always be a qualifier? This new course is a lot easier, in my opinion, compared to the old course.
Mother of Cats
Brewing - I'd be pissed if I learned the course wasn't certified - I'd want a refund. You need a certified course to BQ - I'm sure they check.
FB - I'm still trying to figure out what you mean by junk miles. That term means different things to different people.
6 miles aerobic (because the first run post-marathon is never easy). 8:57 pace. Also drills and then a bit of swimming.
HR very elevated- about 10 BPM higher than normal. Which is normal for my first runs post-marathon.
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
Brew - The marathon I ran claims it is certified (their old course was but it changed this year), but there is no record of this year's course being certified yet. In addition, the new course of the year had to be changed right before the race due to construction, with the result that the course ran long, and also with the result that the course needs to be recertified. If I had qualified for Boston on the course and not made it in because they are screwing around on the certification I would have been pissed, even more so than I am for the course seeming to be close to half a mile long and adding several minutes to my finishing time.
Rovatti -- ESG says hello. God he's slow. hehe. But very good running company. On the other thing; aren't there too my diet and running gurus out there? It all looks like Google Ad click-bait to me. But I do eat a high fat diet because of olive oil. Hope you are starting to feel stronger for running.
Oregon -- really liked your sensible shoes fear. Funny -- but, wait. DW is 60+ and wears sensible shoes -- it's not that bad!
RLK -- Other have weighed in, but it seems like the track/fast race season can be wearing. When you are adding miles and getting ready for a marathon, a shitty week just means that you felt like crap and ran a bunch of slow miles. No harm. But in your current cycle, a slightly tired week really shows. Hope that with a little recovery (a couple of nights of really good sleep), you will be back in form.
Hey Aubuti -- I'm on old 3:20er and don't think we've met. Hello.
Brewing -- thanks for the snakes and trails primer. Running as a high risk sport.
Rune, Brewing, CK, DW -- thanks for the input on garbage runs. That was just what I needed. To me, a garbage run is a run that has no purpose other than to pile up miles and not get hurt. It's not quality, recovery, mid-week MLR, LR, tempo, repeat, stride, or fartlek. It's nothing. Isn't there a podcast called something about garbage miles?
It looks like I can run around 8:30-40 with a HR around 120, which for me is about 73%. The wtf plan is to basically never go over 125 and try to string together a series of 8-10 mile runs were I feel good the next day. Thanks again for the input. We're heading to NYC tomorrow to see DD1, so I get to run in the park for a while.
m: 2:55:04 | 10k: 37:14 | 50mile: 9:35
FB - FWIW, my "junk miles" are all in the pool. And for those, my HR is pretty low (110-120, as opposed to low 140s for an easy run on land). I don't think the HR can go too low.
Also....I'll also be in NYC tomorrow - doing a day trip up. Directed to both Rovatti and FB - anyone have time for a meet-up tomorrow afternoon? I'll be in Manhattan, and open after about noon - my train back to DC leaves at 3 pm.
Today was 5 miles aerobic in 8:52, yoga and then another 3 miles aerobic to easy (9:20) plus some drills. HR still very elevated for the pace, which is normal for me when coming back from a marathon. I think I'm fine, and then I start running.
I find myself in a Magness/Letsrun rabbithole. This is like a wikipedia rabbithole, in terms of continuously clicking new links and opening too many tabs to count, but it is all very unreadable and inconcrete.
Anyway, the topic I've currently reached is various flavors of interval training and their benefits. Magness article here: http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2010/02/interval-training-why-its-misunderstood.html and accompanying letsrun thread with cameos from a few greats here http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=440141.
Anyone know anything about Igloi/Schul training? Dad, I feel like if anyone here did, it'd be you.
(The reason I got on this topic was after an interesting track workout last night. Rx was: 2km@10km race pace + 3 min rest + 2-3mi continuous of out/in 200s, in which "out" is (3k pace)+10sec and "in" is 3k pace. (For me, this is equivalent to running 55/45sec 200s continuously - 6:00 pace for "in" and 7:40 pace for "out".) I ran with "group 2", which is a cluster of women who are slightly faster than me, and accepted being off the back. kinase was there too and she is truly the most level-headed runner i know, so i figured i'd stick with or not far behind her (she's getting fit!). after the 3min break, we line up for the out/in 200s part of the workout, and when we get to the first "in", most of the group shoots off the start line. ok, bye. I ran a 43, which was a bit quick and probably what most of the group should've been running (~5:55 as 3k pace), and they are way ahead of me. strava shows they did 38 (which equates to 4:32 pace. for a 3k. yeah...). yada yada, we keep doing circles, and eventually kinase and i catch them, on an "out". they are shuffling. then they re-pass us on the "in", and this continues. they have turned their aerobic workout into anaerobic 200s with jogging rest, and each "out" gets slower as the workout goes on. we completely pass them, and then when we stop at the end of the workout, we kind of walk it off and regroup while the rest of them are hands-on-knees gasping for air. their laps ended up being mostly around 67/37 instead of ~53/43. i spoke to coach after the workout, and he's like "yeah i could tell some of the group wasn't doing it right - they were shuffling down the back stretch" - yet he doesn't say anything. Sure, it's hard for him to discern what our individual splits are vs what they should be on the fly, but if he sees the group shuffling when they should be running mid-7 pace, why say nothing??? frustrating. also frustrated with my teammates who like to race workouts.
/rant )
dwave- glad you're coming back! also so reassuring to see measuring physiological markers of recovery and why things feel hard, even though you know they should. nice.
fb- have fun in new york!
RLK: I get your frustration on that 200 workout. It probably bugs me more that they were doing the workout "wrong" than if they were faster than me. One thing I like about our coach is that he's not afraid to yell across the track to slow down or pick it up. It's tough when there are a lot of people to keep track of.
Brew: I was thinking the other day that over the last 2 years, I have had roughly 25% of my races that were poorly marked, short, long, etc. That seems way too high to me. I at least give them a break if construction or weather causes course alteration, but you shouldn't be holding a race without a verified course.
My youngest 2 kiddos are now sick. We are pretty conservative about heading to the doc for any little thing, but have made 3 trips in a week for high fevers between the 2 kids. The little one, 5 months old had a high white blood cell count which was a little nerve wracking, but they are on meds now and should be improving soon. We are all fairly exhausted as sleep is interrupted with crying, coughing, and need for cuddles.
Ran 5 very tight miles last night. When will my previous fitness levels kick back in????
FB - Ten Junk Miles is my favorite podcast.
Ace - I hate hearing about sick kiddos, especially the tiny ones. Hopefully they recover quickly. And that you and your wife get some more sleep; I'm sure you're not getting much with a sick 5 month old.